From tachtorn.meier at yale.edu Wed Jun 4 08:09:24 2025 From: tachtorn.meier at yale.edu (Meier, Tachtorn) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 12:09:24 +0000 Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Message-ID: Hi! I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name. For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have. Thank you! Wheat [cid:311145d9-ef99-4ee0-8def-b33033a032a5] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 24215 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From mara.caelin at yale.edu Wed Jun 4 08:54:57 2025 From: mara.caelin at yale.edu (Caelin, Mara) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 12:54:57 +0000 Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Wheat, In French, "Du" and "Des" and are contractions of the article plus the preposition (de + le/ de + les), meaning "of the". "De" by itself is only a preposition ("of"), which would put it in the second category mentioned in the example. Following the example, it looks like the AAP should be "Baer, Marcel de". Hope that is helpful! Best, Mara Mara Caelin (she/her/hers) Catalog/Metadata Librarian Bibliographic Description Unit Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:09 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi! I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name. For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have. Thank you! Wheat [cid:311145d9-ef99-4ee0-8def-b33033a032a5] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 24215 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From dominique.bourassa at yale.edu Wed Jun 4 09:29:22 2025 From: dominique.bourassa at yale.edu (Bourassa, Dominique) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 13:29:22 +0000 Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Wheat, When I read the word French, I can't help but jump right in. If this Marcel De Baer is the Belgian judge described in Wikipedia, it's a little more complex than simply following the instructions for French names. Belgian names can be complicated because Belgium has three official languages (Dutch, French, and German). And that doesn't take into account other languages/dialects that were and/or are still spoken like Walloon and Flemish. The first questions we must ask is what origin in "De Baer." To me, it looks like a name of Dutch origin. But that's just a hunch. Marcel De Baer described in the Wikipedia article was born in Antwerp, which is in the Dutch region of Belgian. That could be a clue. But he spoke "around 11 languages"! Therefore, I'll let Hannelore who is from Belgium (not far from Antwerp in fact) confirm that De Baer is of Dutch origin. If the name is of Dutch origin, we should follow the instructions for Dutch and Flemish names (F.11.3) which essentially tell us that the construction of the name depends on its origin. * If the surname is of Dutch origin and the prefix is ver, record the prefix as the first element. Otherwise, record the part following the prefix as the first element. * If we follow this instruction and the example given Beeck, Jan op de, the preferred name is Baer, Marcel de. * For the name of a Netherlander whose surname is not of Dutch origin, record the part following the prefix as the first element. * This instruction does not apply if the person is from Belgium. * For the name of a Belgian whose surname is not of Dutch origin, apply the instructions for the language of the name. * This last instruction would bring us back to the instructions for French you have below, which tells us to record as the first element, the part following the preposition, which Mara explained perfectly and what the example Musset, Alfred de proves. Thanks Mara! On this subject, the document IFLA Names of Persons - Belgium states: "Note: Belgian library practice regarding names with prefixes has been variable until now. In the French-speaking part of the country, the tendency is to treat names of French origin according to French usage and with names of Dutch origin to take the prefix as the entry word. In the Dutch-speaking part, the tendency is to treat all names with prefixes according to the traditional usage in The Netherlands, i.e., to place all prefixes, except ver, at the end of the names and to take the name following the prefix as the entry word. However, the Netherlands cataloguing code, Regels voor de titelbeschrijving, recommends that for international exchange Belgian names should be treated according to the presentation in the national bibliography, as shown in the examples." The examples show: DE LICHTERVELDE, Charles, Graaf which conflicts with RDA!!! Since we have clear RDA instructions, we should follow them. Therefore, it seems that Baer, Marcel de should be the base of the access point, no matter what the presentation on the source is. Best, Dominique From: YUL-NACO On Behalf Of Caelin, Mara Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:55 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, In French, "Du" and "Des" and are contractions of the article plus the preposition (de + le/ de + les), meaning "of the". "De" by itself is only a preposition ("of"), which would put it in the second category mentioned in the example. Following the example, it looks like the AAP should be "Baer, Marcel de". Hope that is helpful! Best, Mara Mara Caelin (she/her/hers) Catalog/Metadata Librarian Bibliographic Description Unit Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:09 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi! I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name. For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have. Thank you! Wheat [cid:image001.png at 01DBD52F.3C0AEDD0] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 24215 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From tachtorn.meier at yale.edu Wed Jun 4 09:32:24 2025 From: tachtorn.meier at yale.edu (Meier, Tachtorn) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 13:32:24 +0000 Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Mara, Thank you for your clear explanation about French articles and prepositions?now it all makes sense! I also want to thank Hannelore for pointing out that the name "Marcel De Baer" might be connected to the Flanders region of Belgium, where Flemish/Dutch is spoken. I have confirmed from the book that Marcel De Baer is indeed from Belgium! So now we know how to construct AAP for this person! Best, Wheat ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO on behalf of Caelin, Mara Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:54 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, In French, "Du" and "Des" and are contractions of the article plus the preposition (de + le/ de + les), meaning "of the". "De" by itself is only a preposition ("of"), which would put it in the second category mentioned in the example. Following the example, it looks like the AAP should be "Baer, Marcel de". Hope that is helpful! Best, Mara Mara Caelin (she/her/hers) Catalog/Metadata Librarian Bibliographic Description Unit Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:09 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi! I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name. For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have. Thank you! Wheat [cid:311145d9-ef99-4ee0-8def-b33033a032a5] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 24215 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From tachtorn.meier at yale.edu Wed Jun 4 09:40:10 2025 From: tachtorn.meier at yale.edu (Meier, Tachtorn) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 13:40:10 +0000 Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dominique, Thank you for the thorough information on NACO name practices for people from Belgium. I originally thought Belgium was solely French-speaking, so this was really helpful! Best, Wheat ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO on behalf of Bourassa, Dominique Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:29 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, When I read the word French, I can?t help but jump right in. If this Marcel De Baer is the Belgian judge described in Wikipedia, it?s a little more complex than simply following the instructions for French names. Belgian names can be complicated because Belgium has three official languages (Dutch, French, and German). And that doesn?t take into account other languages/dialects that were and/or are still spoken like Walloon and Flemish. The first questions we must ask is what origin in ?De Baer.? To me, it looks like a name of Dutch origin. But that?s just a hunch. Marcel De Baer described in the Wikipedia article was born in Antwerp, which is in the Dutch region of Belgian. That could be a clue. But he spoke ?around 11 languages?! Therefore, I?ll let Hannelore who is from Belgium (not far from Antwerp in fact) confirm that De Baer is of Dutch origin. If the name is of Dutch origin, we should follow the instructions for Dutch and Flemish names (F.11.3) which essentially tell us that the construction of the name depends on its origin. * If the surname is of Dutch origin and the prefix is ver, record the prefix as the first element. Otherwise, record the part following the prefix as the first element. * If we follow this instruction and the example given Beeck, Jan op de, the preferred name is Baer, Marcel de. * For the name of a Netherlander whose surname is not of Dutch origin, record the part following the prefix as the first element. * This instruction does not apply if the person is from Belgium. * For the name of a Belgian whose surname is not of Dutch origin, apply the instructions for the language of the name. * This last instruction would bring us back to the instructions for French you have below, which tells us to record as the first element, the part following the preposition, which Mara explained perfectly and what the example Musset, Alfred de proves. Thanks Mara! On this subject, the document IFLA Names of Persons - Belgium states: ?Note: Belgian library practice regarding names with prefixes has been variable until now. In the French-speaking part of the country, the tendency is to treat names of French origin according to French usage and with names of Dutch origin to take the prefix as the entry word. In the Dutch-speaking part, the tendency is to treat all names with prefixes according to the traditional usage in The Netherlands, i.e., to place all prefixes, except ver, at the end of the names and to take the name following the prefix as the entry word. However, the Netherlands cataloguing code, Regels voor de titelbeschrijving, recommends that for international exchange Belgian names should be treated according to the presentation in the national bibliography, as shown in the examples.? The examples show: DE LICHTERVELDE, Charles, Graaf which conflicts with RDA!!! Since we have clear RDA instructions, we should follow them. Therefore, it seems that Baer, Marcel de should be the base of the access point, no matter what the presentation on the source is. Best, Dominique From: YUL-NACO On Behalf Of Caelin, Mara Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:55 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, In French, "Du" and "Des" and are contractions of the article plus the preposition (de + le/ de + les), meaning "of the". "De" by itself is only a preposition ("of"), which would put it in the second category mentioned in the example. Following the example, it looks like the AAP should be "Baer, Marcel de". Hope that is helpful! Best, Mara Mara Caelin (she/her/hers) Catalog/Metadata Librarian Bibliographic Description Unit Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:09 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi! I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name. For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have. Thank you! Wheat [cid:image001.png at 01DBD52F.3C0AEDD0] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 24215 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: From hannelore.segers at yale.edu Wed Jun 4 09:45:44 2025 From: hannelore.segers at yale.edu (Segers, Hannelore) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 13:45:44 +0000 Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Wheat, After doing a little bit more digging, De Baer is definitely a last name of Dutch (Germanic etymologically) origin. Belgium can be a bit of a difficult case since some people living in the Flemish part of the country can have last names of French origin (and the reverse can also be true of course). Just a quick note, though, about the capitalization of De. The rule in Flemish is that we capitalize the "De" and "Van" prefixes in names (except in some very rare exceptions?one of them is in the case of nobility). Dutch generally does not capitalize these prefixes. Unless RDA does not allow it, I would personally keep the "De" capitalized to reflect Flemish use. Best, Hannelore Hannelore Segers, PhD Early Materials Cataloger Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale Library hannelore.segers at yale.edu she/her ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:32 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Mara, Thank you for your clear explanation about French articles and prepositions?now it all makes sense! I also want to thank Hannelore for pointing out that the name "Marcel De Baer" might be connected to the Flanders region of Belgium, where Flemish/Dutch is spoken. I have confirmed from the book that Marcel De Baer is indeed from Belgium! So now we know how to construct AAP for this person! Best, Wheat ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO on behalf of Caelin, Mara Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:54 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, In French, "Du" and "Des" and are contractions of the article plus the preposition (de + le/ de + les), meaning "of the". "De" by itself is only a preposition ("of"), which would put it in the second category mentioned in the example. Following the example, it looks like the AAP should be "Baer, Marcel de". Hope that is helpful! Best, Mara Mara Caelin (she/her/hers) Catalog/Metadata Librarian Bibliographic Description Unit Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:09 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi! I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name. For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have. Thank you! Wheat [cid:311145d9-ef99-4ee0-8def-b33033a032a5] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 24215 bytes Desc: image.png URL: From dominique.bourassa at yale.edu Wed Jun 4 10:31:39 2025 From: dominique.bourassa at yale.edu (Bourassa, Dominique) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 14:31:39 +0000 Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Hannelore, Thank you for confirming the original of De Baer. Your comment about Belgium being a difficult case is true. I think it can also apply to other countries like Switzerland that have more than one official language. It is also true because people are moving across borders. It's not always easy to know how to treat a compound name or a name with a prefix because we do not always know the origin of a person's name or where a person was born. There are so many variables. Unfortunately, it seems RDA wants us to write de and van. The basic instruction for names of agents and places (A.2.1) states: "In general, capitalize the first word of each name. Capitalize other words by applying the guidelines at A.10[cid:image002.png at 01DBD53A.AE891340]-A.55[cid:image002.png at 01DBD53A.AE891340], as applicable to the language involved. For names with unusual capitalization, follow the capitalization of the commonly known form." Following this instruction brings us to RDA A.38.2 for Dutch name that instructs us to "Capitalize the prefixes de, ten, van, if not preceded by the Christian name." Since in the access point De Baer is preceded by a Christian name, Marcel, we cannot capitalize the prefix at the end of the access point. Sorry about that. Dominique From: YUL-NACO On Behalf Of Segers, Hannelore Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:46 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, After doing a little bit more digging, De Baer is definitely a last name of Dutch (Germanic etymologically) origin. Belgium can be a bit of a difficult case since some people living in the Flemish part of the country can have last names of French origin (and the reverse can also be true of course). Just a quick note, though, about the capitalization of De. The rule in Flemish is that we capitalize the "De" and "Van" prefixes in names (except in some very rare exceptions-one of them is in the case of nobility). Dutch generally does not capitalize these prefixes. Unless RDA does not allow it, I would personally keep the "De" capitalized to reflect Flemish use. Best, Hannelore Hannelore Segers, PhD Early Materials Cataloger Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale Library hannelore.segers at yale.edu she/her ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:32 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Mara, Thank you for your clear explanation about French articles and prepositions-now it all makes sense! I also want to thank Hannelore for pointing out that the name "Marcel De Baer" might be connected to the Flanders region of Belgium, where Flemish/Dutch is spoken. I have confirmed from the book that Marcel De Baer is indeed from Belgium! So now we know how to construct AAP for this person! Best, Wheat ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Caelin, Mara > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:54 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, In French, "Du" and "Des" and are contractions of the article plus the preposition (de + le/ de + les), meaning "of the". "De" by itself is only a preposition ("of"), which would put it in the second category mentioned in the example. Following the example, it looks like the AAP should be "Baer, Marcel de". Hope that is helpful! Best, Mara Mara Caelin (she/her/hers) Catalog/Metadata Librarian Bibliographic Description Unit Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:09 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi! I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name. For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have. Thank you! Wheat [cid:image001.png at 01DBD53A.05937190] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 24215 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 743 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From matthew.beacom at yale.edu Wed Jun 4 11:08:46 2025 From: matthew.beacom at yale.edu (Beacom, Matthew) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 15:08:46 +0000 Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, This question and the comments on it have been really interesting and helpful to me--beyond the specifics of the initial question. It's great to have such colleagues as you all. Matthew B From: YUL-NACO On Behalf Of Bourassa, Dominique Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 10:32 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Hannelore, Thank you for confirming the original of De Baer. Your comment about Belgium being a difficult case is true. I think it can also apply to other countries like Switzerland that have more than one official language. It is also true because people are moving across borders. It's not always easy to know how to treat a compound name or a name with a prefix because we do not always know the origin of a person's name or where a person was born. There are so many variables. Unfortunately, it seems RDA wants us to write de and van. The basic instruction for names of agents and places (A.2.1) states: "In general, capitalize the first word of each name. Capitalize other words by applying the guidelines at A.10[cid:image002.png at 01DBD541.0A185940]-A.55[cid:image002.png at 01DBD541.0A185940], as applicable to the language involved. For names with unusual capitalization, follow the capitalization of the commonly known form." Following this instruction brings us to RDA A.38.2 for Dutch name that instructs us to "Capitalize the prefixes de, ten, van, if not preceded by the Christian name." Since in the access point De Baer is preceded by a Christian name, Marcel, we cannot capitalize the prefix at the end of the access point. Sorry about that. Dominique From: YUL-NACO > On Behalf Of Segers, Hannelore Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:46 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, After doing a little bit more digging, De Baer is definitely a last name of Dutch (Germanic etymologically) origin. Belgium can be a bit of a difficult case since some people living in the Flemish part of the country can have last names of French origin (and the reverse can also be true of course). Just a quick note, though, about the capitalization of De. The rule in Flemish is that we capitalize the "De" and "Van" prefixes in names (except in some very rare exceptions-one of them is in the case of nobility). Dutch generally does not capitalize these prefixes. Unless RDA does not allow it, I would personally keep the "De" capitalized to reflect Flemish use. Best, Hannelore Hannelore Segers, PhD Early Materials Cataloger Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale Library hannelore.segers at yale.edu she/her ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:32 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Mara, Thank you for your clear explanation about French articles and prepositions-now it all makes sense! I also want to thank Hannelore for pointing out that the name "Marcel De Baer" might be connected to the Flanders region of Belgium, where Flemish/Dutch is spoken. I have confirmed from the book that Marcel De Baer is indeed from Belgium! So now we know how to construct AAP for this person! Best, Wheat ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Caelin, Mara > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:54 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, In French, "Du" and "Des" and are contractions of the article plus the preposition (de + le/ de + les), meaning "of the". "De" by itself is only a preposition ("of"), which would put it in the second category mentioned in the example. Following the example, it looks like the AAP should be "Baer, Marcel de". Hope that is helpful! Best, Mara Mara Caelin (she/her/hers) Catalog/Metadata Librarian Bibliographic Description Unit Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:09 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi! I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name. For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have. Thank you! Wheat [cid:image003.png at 01DBD541.0A185940] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 743 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image003.png Type: image/png Size: 24215 bytes Desc: image003.png URL: From hannelore.segers at yale.edu Wed Jun 4 11:11:58 2025 From: hannelore.segers at yale.edu (Segers, Hannelore) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 15:11:58 +0000 Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dominique, Thanks for this explanation! That makes sense. While it would not be technically/grammatically correct for Flemish, I suppose it won't hurt discovery. It does seem like a pity that RDA doesn't make more specific capitalization distinctions between Dutch and Flemish, though. (The RDA A.38.2 rule regarding capitalization before non-Christian names unfortunately only specifies Dutch and not Flemish...) Best, Hannelore Hannelore Segers, PhD Early Materials Cataloger Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale Library hannelore.segers at yale.edu she/her ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO on behalf of Bourassa, Dominique Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 10:31 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Hannelore, Thank you for confirming the original of De Baer. Your comment about Belgium being a difficult case is true. I think it can also apply to other countries like Switzerland that have more than one official language. It is also true because people are moving across borders. It?s not always easy to know how to treat a compound name or a name with a prefix because we do not always know the origin of a person?s name or where a person was born. There are so many variables. Unfortunately, it seems RDA wants us to write de and van. The basic instruction for names of agents and places (A.2.1) states: ?In general, capitalize the first word of each name. Capitalize other words by applying the guidelines at A.10[cid:image002.png at 01DBD53A.AE891340]?A.55[cid:image002.png at 01DBD53A.AE891340], as applicable to the language involved. For names with unusual capitalization, follow the capitalization of the commonly known form.? Following this instruction brings us to RDA A.38.2 for Dutch name that instructs us to ?Capitalize the prefixes de, ten, van, if not preceded by the Christian name.? Since in the access point De Baer is preceded by a Christian name, Marcel, we cannot capitalize the prefix at the end of the access point. Sorry about that. Dominique From: YUL-NACO On Behalf Of Segers, Hannelore Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:46 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, After doing a little bit more digging, De Baer is definitely a last name of Dutch (Germanic etymologically) origin. Belgium can be a bit of a difficult case since some people living in the Flemish part of the country can have last names of French origin (and the reverse can also be true of course). Just a quick note, though, about the capitalization of De. The rule in Flemish is that we capitalize the "De" and "Van" prefixes in names (except in some very rare exceptions?one of them is in the case of nobility). Dutch generally does not capitalize these prefixes. Unless RDA does not allow it, I would personally keep the "De" capitalized to reflect Flemish use. Best, Hannelore Hannelore Segers, PhD Early Materials Cataloger Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale Library hannelore.segers at yale.edu she/her ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:32 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Mara, Thank you for your clear explanation about French articles and prepositions?now it all makes sense! I also want to thank Hannelore for pointing out that the name "Marcel De Baer" might be connected to the Flanders region of Belgium, where Flemish/Dutch is spoken. I have confirmed from the book that Marcel De Baer is indeed from Belgium! So now we know how to construct AAP for this person! Best, Wheat ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Caelin, Mara > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:54 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, In French, "Du" and "Des" and are contractions of the article plus the preposition (de + le/ de + les), meaning "of the". "De" by itself is only a preposition ("of"), which would put it in the second category mentioned in the example. Following the example, it looks like the AAP should be "Baer, Marcel de". Hope that is helpful! Best, Mara Mara Caelin (she/her/hers) Catalog/Metadata Librarian Bibliographic Description Unit Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:09 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi! I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name. For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have. Thank you! Wheat [cid:image001.png at 01DBD53A.05937190] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 24215 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 743 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: From dominique.bourassa at yale.edu Wed Jun 4 11:48:19 2025 From: dominique.bourassa at yale.edu (Bourassa, Dominique) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2025 15:48:19 +0000 Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, it is a pity that RDA says nothing about Flemish capitalization. Lots of other languages are missing from Appendix A and other sections of the original toolkit. As a French speaker, the first time I saw the section on capitalization of French language in RDA, I couldn?t believe how short it was because French capitalization is so much more complex than what RDA says about it. Even though it is supposed to be an international resource, the original RDA toolkit is really based on Anglo-American (and Christian) cataloging practices. Fortunately, some people are involved in making the official RDA Toolkit better in this regard. Best, Dominique From: YUL-NACO on behalf of Segers, Hannelore Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 at 11:12 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Dominique, Thanks for this explanation! That makes sense. While it would not be technically/grammatically correct for Flemish, I suppose it won't hurt discovery. It does seem like a pity that RDA doesn't make more specific capitalization distinctions between Dutch and Flemish, though. (The RDA A.38.2 rule regarding capitalization before non-Christian names unfortunately only specifies Dutch and not Flemish...) Best, Hannelore Hannelore Segers, PhD Early Materials Cataloger Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale Library hannelore.segers at yale.edu she/her ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO on behalf of Bourassa, Dominique Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 10:31 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Hannelore, Thank you for confirming the original of De Baer. Your comment about Belgium being a difficult case is true. I think it can also apply to other countries like Switzerland that have more than one official language. It is also true because people are moving across borders. It?s not always easy to know how to treat a compound name or a name with a prefix because we do not always know the origin of a person?s name or where a person was born. There are so many variables. Unfortunately, it seems RDA wants us to write de and van. The basic instruction for names of agents and places (A.2.1) states: ?In general, capitalize the first word of each name. Capitalize other words by applying the guidelines at A.10[cid:image002.png at 01DBD53A.AE891340]?A.55[cid:image002.png at 01DBD53A.AE891340], as applicable to the language involved. For names with unusual capitalization, follow the capitalization of the commonly known form.? Following this instruction brings us to RDA A.38.2 for Dutch name that instructs us to ?Capitalize the prefixes de, ten, van, if not preceded by the Christian name.? Since in the access point De Baer is preceded by a Christian name, Marcel, we cannot capitalize the prefix at the end of the access point. Sorry about that. Dominique From: YUL-NACO On Behalf Of Segers, Hannelore Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:46 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, After doing a little bit more digging, De Baer is definitely a last name of Dutch (Germanic etymologically) origin. Belgium can be a bit of a difficult case since some people living in the Flemish part of the country can have last names of French origin (and the reverse can also be true of course). Just a quick note, though, about the capitalization of De. The rule in Flemish is that we capitalize the "De" and "Van" prefixes in names (except in some very rare exceptions?one of them is in the case of nobility). Dutch generally does not capitalize these prefixes. Unless RDA does not allow it, I would personally keep the "De" capitalized to reflect Flemish use. Best, Hannelore Hannelore Segers, PhD Early Materials Cataloger Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library, Yale Library hannelore.segers at yale.edu she/her ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 9:32 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Mara, Thank you for your clear explanation about French articles and prepositions?now it all makes sense! I also want to thank Hannelore for pointing out that the name "Marcel De Baer" might be connected to the Flanders region of Belgium, where Flemish/Dutch is spoken. I have confirmed from the book that Marcel De Baer is indeed from Belgium! So now we know how to construct AAP for this person! Best, Wheat ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Caelin, Mara > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:54 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: Re: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi Wheat, In French, "Du" and "Des" and are contractions of the article plus the preposition (de + le/ de + les), meaning "of the". "De" by itself is only a preposition ("of"), which would put it in the second category mentioned in the example. Following the example, it looks like the AAP should be "Baer, Marcel de". Hope that is helpful! Best, Mara Mara Caelin (she/her/hers) Catalog/Metadata Librarian Bibliographic Description Unit Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library Yale University ________________________________ From: YUL-NACO > on behalf of Meier, Tachtorn > Sent: Wednesday, June 4, 2025 8:09 AM To: Distribution list for YUL NACO catalogers > Subject: [yul-naco] AAP for French name Hi! I am helping my colleague in constructing an AAP for an individual named "Marcel De Baer." We consulted RDA instruction F.11.5 (see below), but we found the example a bit confusing. Since neither of us is fluent in French, we are hoping someone can explain the differences presented in the instruction and clarify which form should be applied to this name. For verification, the prefix "De" appears with a capital "D" on the sources we have. Thank you! Wheat [cid:image001.png at 01DBD53A.05937190] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image001.png Type: image/png Size: 24215 bytes Desc: image001.png URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image002.png Type: image/png Size: 743 bytes Desc: image002.png URL: