[Nhcoll-l] jar lids
Dirk Neumann
dirk.neumann at zsm.mwn.de
Wed Feb 28 02:13:25 EST 2018
Good morning Jean-Marc, Mike & Andy!
We have metal lids since the 1990ies in our collection. At the moment, I
occasionally have to replace those which have and additional PE foil
originally thought and introduced to improve the closure. In fact it
traps condensates and accelerates deterioration (rusting ) of lids.
As we have huge troubles with our climate control systems since several
years (system dates back to 1985 and never worked properly, leading to
RH shift btw. 80-30 %, yesterday I was even below 30% ..) and
temperature shifts ranging from 16-24°C, metal lids in our collection
are all but under stable, controlled conditions. Adding to this, we have
the quite aggressive ketone MEK as denaturant. Still, the metal lids do
fine, and our observations in Munich largely agree with observations
Emily Dock made in Stockholm. (Warén, A., E. Dock-Åkerman, and H.
Taylor. 2010. Metal-lid jars in museum collections? /Collection Forum/
24(1-2):52-61.)
Perhaps there is a difference in industry norms or production standards
between North America and Europe ? I know the Steigerwald & Laframboise
paper, but the question of taping all jars (and re-doing all taping once
the jars are opened) is a simple cost-benefit question: a metal lid is
less then 10 cent and replacing a lid is less then 5 seconds, re-doing
the taping takes 1-2 minutes plus tape costs. We have a rather small,
but heavily frequented collection, so replacing metal lids is the
cheaper option for us.
My observation is that PP-lids with PE-liners do fine up to 45 mm neck
opening. Above that (50 mm), closures are not that good and jars show
increased evaporation issues. So our strategy at the moment is: PP-lids
with PE-Liners for 100ml-300 ml jars (rarely 500-1000 with 50 mmm
necks), 1200-1700 ml jars with metal lids and above only borosilicate
with plane or ground stopper closures (typical sizes are 300 mm x 80 mm
and 300 x 150 mm for flanged and 400 x 150 mm & 600 x 200 mm for
stoppered).
Mike's question was to replace metal lids for jars which were designed
for metal lids. Because of the narrow threads of those jars and the fact
that opening would be rather wide (if I understood Mike's question
correctly), I doubt that PP-screw on lids for diameters above 50 mm
would be a could replacement. Independent of this I definitely agree
that replacement of entire jars (compromised metal lids in jars with
necks up to 50 mm in diameter) with jars with PP-lids would be a good
idea. Depending on the climatic conditions inside storage. PP lids with
PE liners are surely a much better oxygen barrier compared to PVC.-lids,
but still allow diffusion of oxygen. Metal lids have a better
performance in this regard.
In the end there are several trade-offs and no straight forwards
solution, I guess.
All the best
Dirk
Am 27.02.2018 um 21:41 schrieb Jean-Marc Gagnon:
>
> Dirk,
>
> I was a little surprised by your response, promoting metal lids as
> opposed to Polypropylene lids. We (at CMN) have not had any success
> with metal lids, even with what seems to be reasonable,
> ethanol-resistant liners. Even the metal lids designed for Mason Jars,
> commonly used for preserves in North America, will rust after a while.
>
> In all our fluid-preserved collections, we have been using with great
> success Polypropylene lids for decades (of course, with two full tread
> turns), along with the F217 PE liner and sealing tape (see Steigerwald
> and Laframboise (1996). TAPE APPLICATION: A JAR SEALING METHOD FOR
> REDUCING ETHANOL EVAPORATION IN FLUID-PRESERVED COLLECTIONS.
> Collection Forum Volume 12, Number 2).
>
> While we haven’t quantitatively measured that success, I can tell you
> that in our wet Mollusc Collection, prior to 2002, we would have many
> jars needing retopping after only a few years (they often only had the
> PP lids with no liner or tape). But after applying the standard I
> described above in 2002, we literally haven’t had to retop the ethanol
> in any of the jars in the past 15-16 years.
>
> Is it always perfect: No. But we have had very little failure in these
> lids and liners. The tape is always reapplied fresh if a jar needs to
> be open; it is relatively inexpensive (from Spectape Inc.) so that I
> not an issue.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Jean-Marc
>
> Jean-Marc Gagnon, Ph.D.
>
> Curator/Conservateur, Invertebrate Collections/Collections de invertébrés
>
> Tel : 613-364-4066, email/courriel : jmgagnon at nature.ca
> <mailto:jmgagnon at nature.ca>
>
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> *From:*nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu
> [mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu] *On Behalf Of *Dirk Neumann
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
> *To:* Mike Rutherford <Mike.Rutherford at sta.uwi.edu>;
> nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids
>
> Dear Mike,
>
> depending on the climatic conditions inside you storage area and the
> holding fluid the specimens are stored in rusting of lids can be a
> major issue of course. However, because of the narrow thread of
> twist-off jars, I am not entirely sure of the metal lids can be easily
> replaced with plastic lids. The latter usually need higher threads
> because plastic lids tend to be deformed when screwed tight. This is
> the reason why jars with plastic lids normally have two fully closed
> thread turns, compared to jars with metal lids which usually only have
> half thread turns.
>
> Moreover, plastic lids (e.g. PE or PP lids) do not form a good barrier
> against oxygen, and changing lids might increase or trigger oxidation
> issues inside jars.
>
> My advice would be to look into modern metal lids designed for food
> industry to close jars with sour ingredients (compared to lids for
> sweet stuff such as jam or honey); these usually have thicker liners
> inside which protect lids against scratching. Also made bad
> experiences with (self-designed) PE-foil inlays, an earlier curator
> introduced in our collection: the foil is no good barrier against
> compounds evaporation from holding fluids, but a perfect trap to hold
> condensates inside a tiny, highly corrosive atmosphere lid and foil
> which tends to accelerate deterioration of metal lids.
>
> Might be worth to check in the food sector for replacement lids or
> inquire such suppliers where to find 130mm lids.
>
> All the best
> Dirk
>
> Am 21.02.2018 um 21:57 schrieb Mike Rutherford:
>
> Hi,
>
> I’m trying to source large polypropylene screw top lids for some
> glass jars I have in my museum. The jars are wide mouthed and
> squat, making them ideal for those weird shaped specimens but the
> current lids are thin metal ones which are corroding badly. My
> previous source for lids was Carolina Biological Supplies but
> their maximum size of lid is 120mm diameter and I need ones of
> 130mm diameter.
>
> Can anyone suggest a supplier, preferably in the western hemisphere?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
>
> *Mr. Mike G. Rutherford*
> Curator of the University of the West Indies Zoology Museum (UWIZM)
> Department of Life Sciences
> *The University of The West Indies
> St. Augustine Campus*
>
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---------
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