KINEJAPAN digest 1240
Martin Mudd
Martin.D.Mudd at williams.edu
Sun Apr 4 04:37:51 EDT 2004
Regarding the LIT debate:
I wholeheartedly agree with Pete's comments on the matter - this is
about the "wealthy visitor" experience in japan. I, as a study-abroad
student with a limited stipend, was living the "budget" experience in
tokyo. A few surface similarities here and there, but the feeling of
loneliness and isolation was definitely familiar (for instance, the
clubs at Waseda didnt really want to take on gaijin members for only 5
months.) The only scene that i thought was just kind of stupid was the
"stockings woman", which didnt fit at all. For the wealthy traveler
with no prior cultural knowledge, the view Bill Murray's character had,
of all japan's delights and frustrating idiosyncrasies all experienced
in a short time, seemed fairly believable and understandably
disorienting.
As for:
> Of course this baits the question, why would I want to see a movie
> about people staying at a hotel I can't afford?
I suppose we could ask the same question about _Last Year At Marienbad_!
Peace,
Marty Mudd
Williams College '04
On 4 Apr 2004, at 12:06 AM, KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu wrote:
>
> KINEJAPAN Digest 1240
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
> 1) Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
> by =%iso-8859-1?q?naguib=5Frazak?= <naguib_razak at yahoo.com>
> 2) Re: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
> by Mitch Cullin <fpunk at yahoo.com>
> 3) RE: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
> by "Nohchool Park" <onlypark at hotmail.com>
> 4) RE: Lost in..
> by "Peter Larson" <pete at bulbrecords.com>
> 5) Re: Lost in...
> by =%iso-8859-1?q?naguib=5Frazak?= <naguib_razak at yahoo.com>
> 6) Re: Lost in..
> by "Mark Mays" <tetsuwan at comcast.net>
> 7) RE: Lost in...
> by "Peter Larson" <pete at bulbrecords.com>
> 8) RE: Lost in..
> by "Peter Larson" <pete at bulbrecords.com>
> 9) Re: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
> by Joseph Murphy <urj7 at nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu>
> 10) Re: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
> by <drainer at mpinet.net>
> 11) Re: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
> by "J.sharp" <j.sharp at hpo.net>
>
> From: =%iso-8859-1?q?naguib=5Frazak?= <naguib_razak at yahoo.com>
> Date: 3 April 2004 12:30:38 PM EST
> To: KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
>
>
> Dear KineJapaners,
>
> I do not know if it's gonna be worth anyone's time but
> I am putting the finishing touches to a personal
> documentary film on Tokyo shot during my fellowship
> there with the Japan Foundation in 2002.
>
> I am a malaysian and, in so much as most of the
> forementioned films are from a "western" perspective
> (maybe), I hope my film will offer something new to
> the dialogue amongst different cultures.
>
> Frankly, i think there's too many "outsider in
> Tokyo/Japan" films already, and i hope mine doesn't
> add to that surplus.
>
> It is slated for a Malaysian premiere in June, but I
> would like very much to organize a small preview
> screening in Tokyo around mid-May or early June, if i
> could. Any tips or advice to that effect would be most
> welcome.
>
> It is tentatively titled, "Glass Enclosure".
>
> Regards,
> Mohd Naguib Razak
>
>
> p/s Lost in Translation sucks!
>
> --- "Peter M. Grilli" <grilli at us-japan.org> wrote: >
> I'd like to recommend a number of other
>> documentaries on Japan -- some of
>> which I've personally worked on, and some I simply
>> admire for their
>> excellence. Some of them are not exactly "recent"
>> -- but their age doesn't
>> detract at all from the value.
>>
>>
>> HELLFIRE: A Journey from Hiroshima (directed by
>> John Junkerman & John
>> Dower) (1986)
>>
>> THE AMERICAN VERSION (directed by Louis Alvarez &
>> Andy Kolker)
>>
>> DREAM WINDOW: Reflections on the Japanese Garden
>> (directed by John
>> Junkerman; script by me; Smithsonian Instituteion,
>> 1992)
>>
>> KUROSAWA (a 2-hour special bio-documentary on Akira
>> Kurosawa; produced by
>> BBC & WNET for PBS' "Great Performances," 2001;
>> directed by Adam Low; Producer: Margaret Smilow. I
>> was a co-producer)
>>
>> MUSIC FOR THE MOVIES: TORU TAKEMITSU (directed by
>> Charlotte Zwerin, 1993;
>> I was co-producer with Margaret Smilow)
>>
>> SHINTO: Nature, Gods and Man in Japan (produced by
>> Japan Society, NY;
>> directed by David Westphal & me, 1978)
>>
>> More information about nearly all these films can be
>> found on the Internet
>> Movie Data Base (http://www.imdb.com ) or at
>> Asian Educational Media Service
>> (http://www.aems.uiuc.edu )
>>
>>
>> In the list below, the director of the fine
>> documentary THE INLAND SEA
>> (based on Donald Richie's travel-memoir) should
>> correctly by Lucille Carra.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Peter Grilli
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
>> [mailto:owner-KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu]On
>> Behalf Of Mitch
>> Cullin
>> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 7:38 AM
>> To: KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
>> Subject: Re: Gaijin perspective.
>>
>>
>> "Tokyo Eyes" isn't actually a documentary, so you
>> might want to scratch it from your list. However, I
>> think "The Inland Sea" fits the bill--directed by
>> Lucilla Carter and adapted from the writings of
>> Donald
>> Richie. Also, "Tokyo-Ga" directed by Wim Wenders is
>> worthy. Charlotte Zwerin directed a segment for the
>> "Music for the Movies" series about the composer
>> Toru
>> Takemitsu. "AK" by Chris Marker is another one.
>>
>> --- Joao Paulo Silva <jsilva at contacto3.icep.pt>
>> wrote:
>>> Hi all Kinejapaners
>>>
>>> I've been doing some research on recent gaijin
>>> perspectives of Japan through documentary film and
>>> came about with the following list:
>>>
>>> Kim Longinotto (Eat the Kimono, Gaea-Girls, Dream
>>> Girls, The Good Wife of Tokyo, Shinjuku Boys)
>>> Brice Pedroletti (Knocking on Heaven's
>>> Door-Kamagasaki)
>>> Jean Pierre Limousin (Tokyo Eyes)
>>> Trinh T. Minh-ha (The Fourth Dimension)
>>> Louis Alvarez and Andrew Kolker (The Japanese
>>> Version)
>>> Sue Clayton (Japan Dreaming)
>>> Chip Lord (Aroma of Enchantment)
>>> Walter Salles (Japao, uma viagem no tempo)
>>> Chris Marker (Sunless)
>>>
>>> Does anybody remember of other works?
>>>
>>> Thank you and best regards,
>>>
>>> Joao Paulo
>>
>>
>> =====
>> Most recent propaganda (updated when I remember):
>> http://www.smart.co.uk/dreams/tidecull.htm
>>
> http://publishersweekly.reviewsnews.com/index.asp?
> layout=articleArchive&arti
>> cleId=CA70934&display=searchResults&stt=001
>>
> http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2000-11-10/
> books_set2.html
>>
> http://partners.nytimes.com/books/00/09/24/reviews/000924.24lewist.html
>>
> http://www.thepermanentpress.com/bookdisp.ihtml?id=303
>> http://www.fetchbook.info/Mitch_Cullin.html
>> http://www.corpse.org/issue_8/reviews/phelan.htm
>> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/020613/242/d11q6.html
>>
> http://generationrice.com/index.phtml?talk=peterichang_1
>> http://www.minsky.com/branches.htm
>>
>> "As the movie industry becomes more like the
>> merchandising industry, the
>> book business becomes more like the movie industry.
>> There's more pressure.
>> I think it's very difficult to be a young writer
>> today. I fear that young
>> writers, after one or two books, will disappear the
>> way young film directors
>> do." --Don DeLillo
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> WIN FREE WORLDWIDE FLIGHTS - nominate a cafe in the Yahoo! Mail
> Internet Cafe Awards www.yahoo.co.uk/internetcafes
>
>
>
> From: Mitch Cullin <fpunk at yahoo.com>
> Date: 3 April 2004 1:30:02 PM EST
> To: KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
>
>
> Dear Mohd Naguib Razak,
>
> Your documentary sounds very interesting. Best of
> luck to you on it. Hopefully those of us elsewhere
> will get a chance to see it.
>
>> p/s Lost in Translation sucks!
>
> I'm actually a bit curious about the disliking of this
> film on the KineJapan list, especially since it has
> been so highly regarded elsewhere. What I find most
> perplexing is that I didn't find Lost in Translation
> to be about Japan at all, or, for that matter, about a
> white "Western" perspective of the country (as opposed
> to a film like "The Last Samurai"). In fact, it
> seemed to me that Tokyo was used as more of a backdrop
> and metaphor for loneliness & isolation when
> abroad--and, as such, the story could have pretty much
> taken place anywhere else. Had it been set in Paris I
> wonder if the response here would be so harsh (the
> film strikes me very much as an homage to French New
> Wave cinema). And, as outsiders, is there perhaps a
> tendency to make our own personal experiences and
> feelings about Japan--or Tokyo--somewhat exclusive and
> precious? Any thoughts?
>
> Mitch
>
> =====
> Most recent propaganda (updated when I remember):
> http://www.smart.co.uk/dreams/tidecull.htm
> http://publishersweekly.reviewsnews.com/index.asp?
> layout=articleArchive&articleId=CA70934&display=searchResults&stt=001
> http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2000-11-10/
> books_set2.html
> http://partners.nytimes.com/books/00/09/24/reviews/000924.24lewist.html
> http://www.thepermanentpress.com/bookdisp.ihtml?id=303
> http://www.fetchbook.info/Mitch_Cullin.html
> http://www.corpse.org/issue_8/reviews/phelan.htm
> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/020613/242/d11q6.html
> http://generationrice.com/index.phtml?talk=peterichang_1
> http://www.minsky.com/branches.htm
>
> "As the movie industry becomes more like the merchandising industry,
> the book business becomes more like the movie industry. There's more
> pressure. I think it's very difficult to be a young writer today. I
> fear that young writers, after one or two books, will disappear the
> way young film directors do." --Don DeLillo
>
>
>
> From: "Nohchool Park" <onlypark at hotmail.com>
> Date: 3 April 2004 3:03:54 PM EST
> To: KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: RE: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
>
>
> Dear, Mohd Naguib Razak
>
> I'm Nohchool Park, a Korean graduate student of film study at the
> University of Kansas in the U.S. Your documentary sounds very
> interesting. I wish I could find a way to see your work someday.
>
> Good luck to your screening project.
>
> Best.
>
> Nohchool
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Tax headache? MSN Money provides relief with tax tips, tools, IRS
> forms and more! http://moneycentral.msn.com/tax/workshop/welcome.asp
>
>
>
>
> From: "Peter Larson" <pete at bulbrecords.com>
> Date: 3 April 2004 3:18:02 PM EST
> To: <KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>
> Subject: RE: Lost in..
>
>
> Yes, I agree. I really didn't find Lost in Translation to be about
> Japan
> at all, more about two lonely people far away from home. I didn't
> particularly like the movie, but it wasn't because it was or wasn't set
> in Japan although I did find parts completely depressing, perhaps in a
> way the makers didn't intend. Having originally gone to Japan to get
> away from a nasty divorce, I too spent too many hours hanging in bars
> with folks like the Japanese surfer types portrayed in a movie. Japan
> can be a very, very lonely place, seeing the movie conjured up many
> memories of that time. In that way, I guess, the movie was a successful
> portrayal of an experience many foreigners experience going to Japan.
> However, they could have easily have put the movie anywhere else,
> France, Turkey, Iraq, Korea, New Orleans, Adrian, MI or anywhere else
> and have had it be just as effective.
>
> I think much of the bashing of the film has more to do with the fanboy
> thinking that things have to remain underground to be good and
> "respectable". As soon as things hit the mainstream, many people are
> quick to throw mud at it.
>
> Pete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Mitch
> Cullin
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 1:30 PM
> To: KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
>
> Dear Mohd Naguib Razak,
>
> Your documentary sounds very interesting. Best of
> luck to you on it. Hopefully those of us elsewhere
> will get a chance to see it.
>
>> p/s Lost in Translation sucks!
>
> I'm actually a bit curious about the disliking of this
> film on the KineJapan list, especially since it has
> been so highly regarded elsewhere. What I find most
> perplexing is that I didn't find Lost in Translation
> to be about Japan at all, or, for that matter, about a
> white "Western" perspective of the country (as opposed
> to a film like "The Last Samurai"). In fact, it
> seemed to me that Tokyo was used as more of a backdrop
> and metaphor for loneliness & isolation when
> abroad--and, as such, the story could have pretty much
> taken place anywhere else. Had it been set in Paris I
> wonder if the response here would be so harsh (the
> film strikes me very much as an homage to French New
> Wave cinema). And, as outsiders, is there perhaps a
> tendency to make our own personal experiences and
> feelings about Japan--or Tokyo--somewhat exclusive and
> precious? Any thoughts?
>
> Mitch
>
> =====
> Most recent propaganda (updated when I remember):
> http://www.smart.co.uk/dreams/tidecull.htm
> http://publishersweekly.reviewsnews.com/index.asp?
> layout=articleArchive&
> articleId=CA70934&display=searchResults&stt=001
> http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2000-11-10/
> books_set2.htm
> l
> http://partners.nytimes.com/books/00/09/24/reviews/000924.24lewist.html
> http://www.thepermanentpress.com/bookdisp.ihtml?id=303
> http://www.fetchbook.info/Mitch_Cullin.html
> http://www.corpse.org/issue_8/reviews/phelan.htm
> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/020613/242/d11q6.html
> http://generationrice.com/index.phtml?talk=peterichang_1
> http://www.minsky.com/branches.htm
>
> "As the movie industry becomes more like the merchandising industry,
> the
> book business becomes more like the movie industry. There's more
> pressure. I think it's very difficult to be a young writer today. I
> fear that young writers, after one or two books, will disappear the way
> young film directors do." --Don DeLillo
>
>
>
>
>
> From: =%iso-8859-1?q?naguib=5Frazak?= <naguib_razak at yahoo.com>
> Date: 3 April 2004 4:48:15 PM EST
> To: KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Lost in...
>
>
> Dear Mitch,
>
> Good, good questions!
>
> I felt I had to include that last post-script
> statement on Lost in Translation specifically because
> I too was, unquestionably, Lost in Tokyo back while
> shooting then, and the film too was probably born of
> the same sort of strong feelings felt of Tokyo by Ms.
> Coppola, I suspect.
>
> But I find myself unable to accept that film as either
> legitimate, honest, accurate or worthwhile, let alone
> good or brilliant, as many people and institutions
> have done before. Furthermore, it frequently
> insults/ridicules the "other", for the mere sake of
> cheap laughs and cheaply-earned pathos.
>
> Sure, it might not be about Japan at all nor should we
> be so quick to lay the blame simply on so-called
> "Western" myopia (as us Asians are quick to be
> inclined to), but the film is still guilty of
> patronizing and condescending on another culture, as
> well as missing a glorious opportunity to engage in
> even a little dialogue amongst cultures at odds with
> each other, as a by-product of its commercial/artistic
> aspirations.
>
> I wouldn't mind at all if it was some sort of
> Hollywood action film or comedy where one is not
> expected to bring their brains to the cinema, but the
> film strives to be an honest film, a genuine film, or
> at least employs the manner, tone and realism of a
> serious/honest film.
>
> Too many "cultural encounter" moments in the film are
> stretched to the point of being plain "unreal" for the
> sake of cheap laughs or profundity. e.g. The
> incomprehensibly inept interpreter during the Suntory
> ad shoot (they can afford to pay for a Hollywood star,
> but not a decent interpreter??). "Lip my stockings".
> 'Oh the tv programes there are always sooo bizarre'.
> 'Oh the guys read porn comics on the train all the
> time'.
>
> For me, profound is seeing how good the indian/eastern
> european immigrants workers already speak japanese
> without language school compared to my own 6-weeks of
> paid intensive japanese. Profound is feeling hungry
> regularly because you dont know how to
> order/choose/buy cheap food except to go to more
> expensive/safe places with English menus or the like,
> but you really cannot afford it everyday. Or
> ordering/mistaking the plastic display of an
> Okonomiyaki for some sort of Pizza, and being unable
> to stomach what you just ordered. Or being freaked out
> by those bonitos quivering like worms over your
> Okonomiyaki, and unable to verify what it is with the
> local staff (they tell you it's fish, but damm if that
> really looks like a fish!). Profound and funny, i
> might add (so i reckon). and not simply because you
> can't be half-assed to figure things out yourself or
> pickup some japanese or carry a dictionary.
>
> The thing is, the sort of stereotyping that happens in
> Lost in Translation happens all the time towards other
> Asian peoples, Africans and South Americans. Then
> again, the tourist bodies of most of these countries
> probably engage in similar or other stereotyping just
> as bad.
>
> and it isn't just a West against Asian sort of thing.
> a Japanese person might apply the same sort stereotype
> towards a Arab person, and Malaysian might do likewise
> towards the Chinese.
>
> But films like Lost in Translation really sets the
> tone for so many people out there, and misses the
> chance to do something right about it. when i told my
> japanese friend how screwed up and lonely i felt in
> tokyo, he said even he feels the same way about living
> in tokyo. there's more to the Tokyo story or the story
> of loneliness than the cheap shots Ms. Coppola
> indulged in.
>
> and a "metaphor for loneliness & isolation when
> abroad" you say? well, the agonies of priviliged sorts
> stuck up in the Park Hyatt feeling lonely and isolated
> is not something i could really care about. the
> loneliness of a Bangladeshi immigrant missing his
> Basmathi rice, missing physical human contact,
> slogging hard at work to earn enough money to feed his
> entire extended family of 20, is genuine loneliness,
> the sort of isolation that doesn't get greeted with
> Bangladeshi well-wishes at the Park Hyatt reception or
> rewarded with a jacuzzi bath. worst of all, we are
> meant to think/respond as if it's cute or cool of Bill
> Murray's character to mouth at every
> oddity/idiosyncracy perceived, whereas i reckon he's
> being down-right rude, obnoxious, presumptuous,
> arrogant, and cheap.
>
> having bashed the film that much, i do nevertheless
> always credit the film with two rare moments of
> genuine potency. that moment when Bill Murray sings
> "More Than This... i know there's nothing, More than
> this...". and the final wordless goodbye hug with
> Scarlett. yes the sheer emptiness of life and the
> sheer depth of loneliness is often indivisable and
> universal to whomsoever, whether you're a cad, a hero,
> a jerk or a saint.
>
> for me, those two moments revealed powerful universal
> truths with pure economy. but the rest of the film is
> contrived and suspect.
>
> if you want to know more about isolation and
> loneliness, I'd rather recommend to you Pen-ek
> Ranaturang's "Last Life In The Universe", about an
> isolated Japanese man working in Bangkok and an
> isolated Thai girl isolated in her own country. it can
> afford to be funny (really, really funny), sincere,
> culturally revealing, and emotionally enriching at the
> same time.
>
>> And, as outsiders, is there perhaps a
>> tendency to make our own personal experiences and
>> feelings about Japan--or Tokyo--somewhat exclusive
>> and
>> precious?
> I'm sure that happens as well. perhaps in me as well.
> but that cannot discount the failings of that film
> (Lost in Translation) at the same time. possessive or
> not, we must never waste the opportunity to engage in
> the dialogue of images and ideas across cultural
> borders on an equal basis. we must never waste the
> chance to be circumspect even when the material before
> us satiates our consumerist tendencies.
>
> okay, i've said far too much already. and my apologies
> if this sounds like an attack back at you, i think
> your thoughts/queries were all fair comment. the venom
> was meant solely for the film and Ms. Coppola.
>
> its good to get this off my chest. thanks.
>
> take care y'all.
>
> Naguib Razak
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Mitch Cullin <fpunk at yahoo.com> wrote: > Dear Mohd
> Naguib Razak,
>>
>> Your documentary sounds very interesting. Best of
>> luck to you on it. Hopefully those of us elsewhere
>> will get a chance to see it.
>>
>>> p/s Lost in Translation sucks!
>>
>> I'm actually a bit curious about the disliking of
>> this
>> film on the KineJapan list, especially since it has
>> been so highly regarded elsewhere. What I find most
>> perplexing is that I didn't find Lost in Translation
>> to be about Japan at all, or, for that matter, about
>> a
>> white "Western" perspective of the country (as
>> opposed
>> to a film like "The Last Samurai"). In fact, it
>> seemed to me that Tokyo was used as more of a
>> backdrop
>> and metaphor for loneliness & isolation when
>> abroad--and, as such, the story could have pretty
>> much
>> taken place anywhere else. Had it been set in Paris
>> I
>> wonder if the response here would be so harsh (the
>> film strikes me very much as an homage to French New
>> Wave cinema). And, as outsiders, is there perhaps a
>> tendency to make our own personal experiences and
>> feelings about Japan--or Tokyo--somewhat exclusive
>> and
>> precious? Any thoughts?
>>
>> Mitch
>>
>> =====
>> Most recent propaganda (updated when I remember):
>> http://www.smart.co.uk/dreams/tidecull.htm
>>
> http://publishersweekly.reviewsnews.com/index.asp?
> layout=articleArchive&articleId=CA70934&display=searchResults&stt=001
>>
> http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2000-11-10/
> books_set2.html
>>
> http://partners.nytimes.com/books/00/09/24/reviews/000924.24lewist.html
>>
> http://www.thepermanentpress.com/bookdisp.ihtml?id=303
>> http://www.fetchbook.info/Mitch_Cullin.html
>> http://www.corpse.org/issue_8/reviews/phelan.htm
>> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/020613/242/d11q6.html
>>
> http://generationrice.com/index.phtml?talk=peterichang_1
>> http://www.minsky.com/branches.htm
>>
>> "As the movie industry becomes more like the
>> merchandising industry, the book business becomes
>> more like the movie industry. There's more
>> pressure. I think it's very difficult to be a young
>> writer today. I fear that young writers, after one
>> or two books, will disappear the way young film
>> directors do." --Don DeLillo
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> WIN FREE WORLDWIDE FLIGHTS - nominate a cafe in the Yahoo! Mail
> Internet Cafe Awards www.yahoo.co.uk/internetcafes
>
>
>
> From: "Mark Mays" <tetsuwan at comcast.net>
> Date: 3 April 2004 5:11:58 PM EST
> To: <KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>
> Subject: Re: Lost in..
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Larson" <pete at bulbrecords.com>
>
>>
>> I think much of the bashing of the film has more to do with the fanboy
>> thinking that things have to remain underground to be good and
>> "respectable". As soon as things hit the mainstream, many people are
>> quick to throw mud at it.
>>
>> Pete
>>
> can you elaborate on this?
>
>
>
> From: "Peter Larson" <pete at bulbrecords.com>
> Date: 3 April 2004 5:25:54 PM EST
> To: <KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>
> Subject: RE: Lost in...
>
>
> While I didn't particularly like the movie either for many of the same
> reasons you mention here, in the movies defense, I thought that it was
> an accurate portrayal of what someone in those particular characters
> situations might experience. I found it irritating but then I have
> spent
> the better part of the last decade immersed in Japan. To someone
> staying
> a week at the Park Hyatt, this was most likely what they would see and
> go through. Of course this baits the question, why would I want to see
> a
> movie about people staying at a hotel I can't afford, but then, if it
> hadn't been set in Japan, I most likely would have never have watched
> the film. On a footnote, I saw the film at the insistence of my
> Japanese
> aunt, who, along with my Japanese wife, thought the movie was
> hysterical.
>
> While there should be films made about the plight of immigrants and
> other social problems in Japan, I hardly think it would be a good sell
> to people looking for light romantic comedies here. I thought Lost In
> Translation was still a bit less offensive than much that appears in
> this genre, which more often than not just simply insults my
> intelligence.
>
> Pete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of
> =%iso-8859-1?q?naguib=5Frazak?=
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 4:48 PM
> To: KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Lost in...
>
> Dear Mitch,
>
> Good, good questions!
>
> I felt I had to include that last post-script
> statement on Lost in Translation specifically because
> I too was, unquestionably, Lost in Tokyo back while
> shooting then, and the film too was probably born of
> the same sort of strong feelings felt of Tokyo by Ms.
> Coppola, I suspect.
>
> But I find myself unable to accept that film as either
> legitimate, honest, accurate or worthwhile, let alone
> good or brilliant, as many people and institutions
> have done before. Furthermore, it frequently
> insults/ridicules the "other", for the mere sake of
> cheap laughs and cheaply-earned pathos.
>
> Sure, it might not be about Japan at all nor should we
> be so quick to lay the blame simply on so-called
> "Western" myopia (as us Asians are quick to be
> inclined to), but the film is still guilty of
> patronizing and condescending on another culture, as
> well as missing a glorious opportunity to engage in
> even a little dialogue amongst cultures at odds with
> each other, as a by-product of its commercial/artistic
> aspirations.
>
> I wouldn't mind at all if it was some sort of
> Hollywood action film or comedy where one is not
> expected to bring their brains to the cinema, but the
> film strives to be an honest film, a genuine film, or
> at least employs the manner, tone and realism of a
> serious/honest film.
>
> Too many "cultural encounter" moments in the film are
> stretched to the point of being plain "unreal" for the
> sake of cheap laughs or profundity. e.g. The
> incomprehensibly inept interpreter during the Suntory
> ad shoot (they can afford to pay for a Hollywood star,
> but not a decent interpreter??). "Lip my stockings".
> 'Oh the tv programes there are always sooo bizarre'.
> 'Oh the guys read porn comics on the train all the
> time'.
>
> For me, profound is seeing how good the indian/eastern
> european immigrants workers already speak japanese
> without language school compared to my own 6-weeks of
> paid intensive japanese. Profound is feeling hungry
> regularly because you dont know how to
> order/choose/buy cheap food except to go to more
> expensive/safe places with English menus or the like,
> but you really cannot afford it everyday. Or
> ordering/mistaking the plastic display of an
> Okonomiyaki for some sort of Pizza, and being unable
> to stomach what you just ordered. Or being freaked out
> by those bonitos quivering like worms over your
> Okonomiyaki, and unable to verify what it is with the
> local staff (they tell you it's fish, but damm if that
> really looks like a fish!). Profound and funny, i
> might add (so i reckon). and not simply because you
> can't be half-assed to figure things out yourself or
> pickup some japanese or carry a dictionary.
>
> The thing is, the sort of stereotyping that happens in
> Lost in Translation happens all the time towards other
> Asian peoples, Africans and South Americans. Then
> again, the tourist bodies of most of these countries
> probably engage in similar or other stereotyping just
> as bad.
>
> and it isn't just a West against Asian sort of thing.
> a Japanese person might apply the same sort stereotype
> towards a Arab person, and Malaysian might do likewise
> towards the Chinese.
>
> But films like Lost in Translation really sets the
> tone for so many people out there, and misses the
> chance to do something right about it. when i told my
> japanese friend how screwed up and lonely i felt in
> tokyo, he said even he feels the same way about living
> in tokyo. there's more to the Tokyo story or the story
> of loneliness than the cheap shots Ms. Coppola
> indulged in.
>
> and a "metaphor for loneliness & isolation when
> abroad" you say? well, the agonies of priviliged sorts
> stuck up in the Park Hyatt feeling lonely and isolated
> is not something i could really care about. the
> loneliness of a Bangladeshi immigrant missing his
> Basmathi rice, missing physical human contact,
> slogging hard at work to earn enough money to feed his
> entire extended family of 20, is genuine loneliness,
> the sort of isolation that doesn't get greeted with
> Bangladeshi well-wishes at the Park Hyatt reception or
> rewarded with a jacuzzi bath. worst of all, we are
> meant to think/respond as if it's cute or cool of Bill
> Murray's character to mouth at every
> oddity/idiosyncracy perceived, whereas i reckon he's
> being down-right rude, obnoxious, presumptuous,
> arrogant, and cheap.
>
> having bashed the film that much, i do nevertheless
> always credit the film with two rare moments of
> genuine potency. that moment when Bill Murray sings
> "More Than This... i know there's nothing, More than
> this...". and the final wordless goodbye hug with
> Scarlett. yes the sheer emptiness of life and the
> sheer depth of loneliness is often indivisable and
> universal to whomsoever, whether you're a cad, a hero,
> a jerk or a saint.
>
> for me, those two moments revealed powerful universal
> truths with pure economy. but the rest of the film is
> contrived and suspect.
>
> if you want to know more about isolation and
> loneliness, I'd rather recommend to you Pen-ek
> Ranaturang's "Last Life In The Universe", about an
> isolated Japanese man working in Bangkok and an
> isolated Thai girl isolated in her own country. it can
> afford to be funny (really, really funny), sincere,
> culturally revealing, and emotionally enriching at the
> same time.
>
>> And, as outsiders, is there perhaps a
>> tendency to make our own personal experiences and
>> feelings about Japan--or Tokyo--somewhat exclusive
>> and
>> precious?
> I'm sure that happens as well. perhaps in me as well.
> but that cannot discount the failings of that film
> (Lost in Translation) at the same time. possessive or
> not, we must never waste the opportunity to engage in
> the dialogue of images and ideas across cultural
> borders on an equal basis. we must never waste the
> chance to be circumspect even when the material before
> us satiates our consumerist tendencies.
>
> okay, i've said far too much already. and my apologies
> if this sounds like an attack back at you, i think
> your thoughts/queries were all fair comment. the venom
> was meant solely for the film and Ms. Coppola.
>
> its good to get this off my chest. thanks.
>
> take care y'all.
>
> Naguib Razak
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- Mitch Cullin <fpunk at yahoo.com> wrote: > Dear Mohd
> Naguib Razak,
>>
>> Your documentary sounds very interesting. Best of
>> luck to you on it. Hopefully those of us elsewhere
>> will get a chance to see it.
>>
>>> p/s Lost in Translation sucks!
>>
>> I'm actually a bit curious about the disliking of
>> this
>> film on the KineJapan list, especially since it has
>> been so highly regarded elsewhere. What I find most
>> perplexing is that I didn't find Lost in Translation
>> to be about Japan at all, or, for that matter, about
>> a
>> white "Western" perspective of the country (as
>> opposed
>> to a film like "The Last Samurai"). In fact, it
>> seemed to me that Tokyo was used as more of a
>> backdrop
>> and metaphor for loneliness & isolation when
>> abroad--and, as such, the story could have pretty
>> much
>> taken place anywhere else. Had it been set in Paris
>> I
>> wonder if the response here would be so harsh (the
>> film strikes me very much as an homage to French New
>> Wave cinema). And, as outsiders, is there perhaps a
>> tendency to make our own personal experiences and
>> feelings about Japan--or Tokyo--somewhat exclusive
>> and
>> precious? Any thoughts?
>>
>> Mitch
>>
>> =====
>> Most recent propaganda (updated when I remember):
>> http://www.smart.co.uk/dreams/tidecull.htm
>>
> http://publishersweekly.reviewsnews.com/index.asp?
> layout=articleArchive&
> articleId=CA70934&display=searchResults&stt=001
>>
> http://www.austinchronicle.com/issues/dispatch/2000-11-10/
> books_set2.htm
> l
>>
> http://partners.nytimes.com/books/00/09/24/reviews/000924.24lewist.html
>>
> http://www.thepermanentpress.com/bookdisp.ihtml?id=303
>> http://www.fetchbook.info/Mitch_Cullin.html
>> http://www.corpse.org/issue_8/reviews/phelan.htm
>> http://uk.news.yahoo.com/020613/242/d11q6.html
>>
> http://generationrice.com/index.phtml?talk=peterichang_1
>> http://www.minsky.com/branches.htm
>>
>> "As the movie industry becomes more like the
>> merchandising industry, the book business becomes
>> more like the movie industry. There's more
>> pressure. I think it's very difficult to be a young
>> writer today. I fear that young writers, after one
>> or two books, will disappear the way young film
>> directors do." --Don DeLillo
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> WIN FREE WORLDWIDE FLIGHTS - nominate a cafe in the Yahoo! Mail
> Internet
> Cafe Awards www.yahoo.co.uk/internetcafes
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Peter Larson" <pete at bulbrecords.com>
> Date: 3 April 2004 5:28:54 PM EST
> To: <KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>
> Subject: RE: Lost in..
>
>
> Without exposing it for the extreme subjective baseless generalization
> it is? Why I'd just be setting myself up for a pelting!
>
> Pete
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> [mailto:owner-KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu] On Behalf Of Mark
> Mays
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 5:12 PM
> To: KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Lost in..
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Larson" <pete at bulbrecords.com>
>
>>
>> I think much of the bashing of the film has more to do with the fanboy
>> thinking that things have to remain underground to be good and
>> "respectable". As soon as things hit the mainstream, many people are
>> quick to throw mud at it.
>>
>> Pete
>>
> can you elaborate on this?
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Joseph Murphy <urj7 at nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu>
> Date: 3 April 2004 11:13:43 PM EST
> To: KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
>
>
> I think the main problem is that it's a disappointment as a Sophia
> Coppola film. Her handling of 1970's suburbia and the weird stresses
> of a catholic family in the U.S. in Virgin Suicides were so on target,
> so finely observed, and so generous, that there was some hope she
> would bring the same sensitivity to observing the context of Japan.
> Instead she served up a lot of broad gags that strike people who know
> the context as inane. It's a disappointment that she did not see fit
> to bring the same quality of observation to Lost In Translation. And
> I think it's already been noted on this list that the movie received
> an extremely limited opening in Japan for a major Hollywood film.
> J. Murphy
>
>
> I'm actually a bit curious about the disliking of this
> film on the KineJapan list, especially since it has
> been so highly regarded elsewhere. What I find most
> perplexing is that I didn't find Lost in Translation
> to be about Japan at all
> --
>
>
> Univ. of Florida
> Gainesville, FL 32601, USA
> <http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jmurphy>
>
> From: <drainer at mpinet.net>
> Date: 3 April 2004 11:29:13 PM EST
> To: <KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>
> Subject: Re: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
>
>
>
> I was just posting about your reply regarding Lost in Translation
> from a
> few months ago... something about it being the Japan we meet in the
> first
> class hotel circuit. I think that was a good observation. Generally,
> from
> what I've seen so far, there are two types of people who take delight
> in
> this film: people who have been to Japan and stayed in first class
> hotels,
> and those who have never been to Japan but feel that somehow they will
> be
> "understood" if they were ever to come here (of course, you must also
> take
> the soundtrack of the movie into consideration to understand that
> statement).
>
> Also, I think that you have to take into account that the characters
> are
> financially secure and American -- that makes a big difference,
> especially
> with the scene that was mentioned here regarding the man reading an
> explicit
> comic book in the subway. Or the fact that their bonding with Japanese
> culture takes place in a karaoke both... but I digress. The real issue
> here
> is not exploitation of culture, but exploitation of a perceived
> "national
> cool." But I guess that the grass is indeed always greener on the other
> side. (And I'm incoherent here, but, some may get the point.)
>
> -df
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Murphy" <urj7 at nersp.nerdc.ufl.edu>
> To: <KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, April 03, 2004 11:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
>
>
>> I think the main problem is that it's a disappointment as a Sophia
>> Coppola film. Her handling of 1970's suburbia and the weird stresses
>> of a catholic family in the U.S. in Virgin Suicides were so on
>> target, so finely observed, and so generous, that there was some hope
>> she would bring the same sensitivity to observing the context of
>> Japan. Instead she served up a lot of broad gags that strike people
>> who know the context as inane. It's a disappointment that she did
>> not see fit to bring the same quality of observation to Lost In
>> Translation. And I think it's already been noted on this list that
>> the movie received an extremely limited opening in Japan for a major
>> Hollywood film.
>> J. Murphy
>>
>>
>>> I'm actually a bit curious about the disliking of this
>>> film on the KineJapan list, especially since it has
>>> been so highly regarded elsewhere. What I find most
>>> perplexing is that I didn't find Lost in Translation
>>> to be about Japan at all
>> --
>>
>>
>> Univ. of Florida
>> Gainesville, FL 32601, USA
>> <http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jmurphy>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "J.sharp" <j.sharp at hpo.net>
> Date: 3 April 2004 11:39:30 PM EST
> To: KineJapan at lists.acs.ohio-state.edu
> Subject: Re: Gaijin perspective from malaysia!
>
>
> >And I think it's already been noted on this list that the >movie
> received an extremely limited opening in Japan for >a major Hollywood
> film.
>
> Actually it hasn't opened yet in Tokyo. It's opening in a couple of
> weeks on a single screen, the Cinema Rise in Shibuya, a fairly large
> independant venue which has recently screened Dogville. So I wouldn't
> say its an "extremely" limited release, and in fact its feasible that
> if successful it will go on to play more widely. I do however wonder
> how much interest shots of Bill Murray, hardly a star name in Japan,
> wondering lost around Shinjuku and Shibuya will be of interest to
> audiences over here. We'll have to see.
> I've yet to see the film, though have my advance ticket for the
> screening at the ready. I expect to be amused, if not enthralled, but
> I second the opinion that I would rather see a film about a
> Bangladeshi homesick for basmati rise in Tokyo, or some focus on the
> various other nationalities such as Taiwanese, Koreans or Eastern
> Europeans here who manage to at least integrate to some degree more
> than Coppola's characters, rather than what I am suspecting to be a
> composite of sight gags made up of how short Japanese men are alledged
> to be.
>
> Jasper Sharp
> www.midnighteye.com
>
>
> ________________________________________________
> Message sent using Hunter Point Online WebMail
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