Collection permit ideas

[Doug]

I think James is dead on (correct) in his revolting feeling at seeing
market pricing placed on Leps.  Although I find it hard to see how it
follows that it is a vicious circle in our little butterfly paradise.  It
could be just as easily argued that rising market values would soon cause
conservation to happen.  Or it could be just as easily argued that this
point of view is only the demand side of the economy, ignoring the supply
side...and economic reality is supply and demand.

I am put off by this whole discussion since I find it scandalous that we
could prostitute Leps by assigning a "market value" other than zero for
individual butterflies collected by the final owner for whatever pleasure
the minute number of hobbyists or scientists derives from this
combination act of quest/collection/possession.  This is something that
you don't and can't buy for some people.  This is not about business.
Never was.  Who here really thinks that this would effect Lep
populations?   Come on, really.  Who?  Who here would not agree that
habitat destruction is 100% the reason for Lep genocide?  James' posting
seems to say this loud and clear to me, too.  If someone really believes
anything different, please clearly let us know your thinking.  Perhaps a
better start would be to make it illegal in the US and wherever else
possible to commercialize non certified farm raised butterflies.  And no
I don't believe that this would cause a dangerous black market.  If
anything, it would relieve the pressure on the one that is already
there.  Keep in mind that enforcing is not 100%.  Only a statistical
sampling.

Doug Yanega mentioned that many  foreign collecter-scientists have been
assisted by nationals in various countries and later the collectors have
published and have usually not acknowledged them.  Isn't this the real
issue here?  I personally think it is and that any so called scientists
doing this does deserve to lose their privilege to collect.  And that
applies to foreigners as well as neighbors.  Perhaps the way to deal with
this problem is to encourage beating such charlatans in the jungle and
taking away their specimens.  :)

Be free.  Doug.
________________________
Douglas David Dawn
http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/4048/
N.  25º 37.408'
W. 100º 22.003'
Altitude 910 meters
Sylvania Pinus-Quercus

DR. JAMES ADAMS wrote:

> Dear Listers,
>
>            As the discussion continued on this topic, I remained
> troubled by a couple of aspects of the discussion.  You already know
> how I feel about the "market value" aspect -- I made that clear
> earlier.  But I have an additional point to make about the "market
> value" aspect.  If a country's policy ends up including something
> about current market value of an insect, understand that the market
> value of an insect will be driven up by deforestation, making the
> insects more local, more difficult to obtain, and therefore more
> "valuable".  This sounds like an incredibly vicious circle to me,
> with little being done to curb the real problem of habitat
> destruction.  Secondly, to reiterate something that Mark Walker
> mentioned earlier, the permit laws are considered necessary to curb
> any kind of overzealous collecting, but those who would participate
> in the overzealous collecting are likely to find their way around the
> laws no matter what they are (though suffer the consequences if
> they're caught).  But we all are therefore penalized.  Anything seem
> wrong with this to anyone else?
>
>            James
>               James



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