jarofclay at my-deja.com 16 Sep 2000 02:26:34 -0400

Neil Jones Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk
Sun Sep 24 18:51:37 EDT 2000 

In article <45F8A30CE009D2118F850000F805064D01AC65CE at hqmail.gensym.com>
           MWalker at gensym.com "Mark Walker" writes:

> Well, I've been away from etherland for awhile.  I am tempted to make no
> response to this thread - but I'd hate like hell to think that Neil Jones
> might think that I've surrendered.  Of course, I'm tickling him pink just to
> admit that I'm considering him or his opinion worthy of worrying over.  I'll
> have to think about that later.  It's giving me a stomach ache at the
> moment.

Mark,

My criticism of Creation "Science" was not aimed personally at you.
I thought that we had privately agreed to differ on this.
I did speak out against this as I am utterly convinced of the 
dishonest  nature of this phoney science.
 
> It is truly amazing to me how many strong opinions there are against
> Creationism.  I'm not saying that it amazes me that so many people oppose
> the "theory".  It's the degree of hatred and animosity that accompanies
> their responses that amazes me so.  Has the teaching of evolution become so
> absolute that it's opposition always generates anger and disgust?

I suspect that you will label me as "arrogant" again. YES the teaching
of evolution is an absolute. In the same way as the teaching that the
Earth is round not flat or that the Earth goes around the Sun.
(The latter was disputed for centuries by religious zealots.)
If you believe differently then so be it. I don't believe you are a bad
person for doing so. I do have a quarrel with those who try to "obtain money
by deception" and with those who smother free speech with the comforting
pillow of religion.

There is, unfortunately, a cultural divide here. In the UK there is 
virtually no debate over it. It is seen as an odd American phenomenon.

> Who's
> guilty of pushing thought control now?  Based on these most recent remarks,
> the day when Creationist thought becomes illegal doesn't seem so far away.
> What a great society that will be!

It isn't a matter of thought control at all. I believe that religion is
the strongest form of thought control of all. 

> How any of you out there can claim to have special insight on the origins of
> the universe is beyond me.  Surely you feel the same way about me and my
> Bible.

There are plenty of people who believe in God and the Bible but who accept
evolution as fact. Charles Darwin himself had a degree in theology.

> But if I take exception to your ill-founded arrogance and
> self-ascribed wisdom, you quickly point to my lack of scientific method.
> Well, there's nothing scientific about the non-objective ranting and ravings
> associated with this thread. 

Well. If some one started to claim that the Sun went around the Earth people
might well look at them as odd. This is a scientific list. There are
a lot of scientifically minded people on it. "Birds of a feather flock together"
you would expect them to look at pseudoscience rather sceptically.

> You are cruel, mean-spirited, ethno-centric,
> and unfair.

I don't think science is like this. Yes I did complain about someone who
believed magicians were in league with the devil. I hope that people in the
USA don't believe in this today. It speaks of medieval attitudes where harmless
old women were burnt alive for keeping a black cat. 

> As a result, I'd like to ask for the same license to spew -
> without the consequence of accountability to my Creator.

I am glad that I have the freedom of thought not to have to think about things
like this.


   What I'd like to
> do - in my most graceful and compassionate tone - is ask you to all pack it
> far up your highly evolved poop-chutes.  But I'll resist.  And pray for you
> instead.

Well I suppose I should thank you for praying for me. I sincerely admire the
wit in that remark.

> 
> Mark Walker.
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Neil at NWJONES.DEMON.CO.UK [mailto:Neil at NWJONES.DEMON.CO.UK]
> > Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2000 2:37 AM
> > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > Subject: Re:jarofclay at my-deja.com 16 Sep 2000 02:26:34 -0400
> > 
> > 
> > In article <8pvbf1$4ss$1 at nnrp1.deja.com> priamus at my-deja.com  writes:
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I missed the original post but PLEASE . . . . Gimme a Break!
> > > 
> > > Take a closer look at his "Sponsors" and his Venues.
> > > 
> > > Just another Whacko Creationist out to (hopefully) make a 
> > name & a buck
> > > for himself in his sunset years. One of those "warm, fuzzy, 
> > feel-good
> > > types who has never got dirt on his boots or under his fingernails.
> > > 
> > > I can't remember the quote exactly, but in Palladin there 
> > is a line that
> > > goes something like: "save me from all those with good intentions".
> > > 
> > > Sorry if I seem a bit brusque, but as an Australian, I 
> > can't stand this
> > > sort of bullshit.
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > Chris Hocking
> > 
> > Creation "science" is  utterly and completely phoney. It is 
> > also largely
> > a North American Phenomenon. Although I suspect it would have 
> > its followers
> > in places like Iran and Iraq. I have only ever met 2 British 
> > people who
> > advocated its crede. One was the son of an evangelist 
> > preacher. Another
> > was a rather gullable born-again type who also believed that 
> > stage magicians
> > were in league with the devil. This was because he couldn't 
> > work out how they
> > did their tricks!
> > 
> > People on Leps-l should be aware that the original posting was cross
> > posted to talk.origins as well as sci.bio.entomology.lepidoptera .
> > (This posting isn't)
> > 
> > Talk.origins is full of people who argue about this. The 
> > kinds that shout
> > "get thee behind me satan" at people.
> > 
> > Chris Hocking shouldn't need to apologise for attacking this 
> > scientific 
> > perversion. It is backward, ignorant and fundamentally dishonest.
> > 
> > 
> > Note. Most British people like myself are not religious. Those who are
> > often see no conflict between believing in God and believing 
> > in evolution.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >Press Release
> > > >September 15, 2000
> > > >
> > > >ELECTRONICS ENGINEER SAYS STUDIES OF MONARCH BUTTERFLY 
> > SHOW EVIDENCE
> > > >OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN
> > > >
> > > >The Original Navigational Micro-Computer
> > > >THE MONARCH BUTTERFLY: A lecture (with slides) by Jules H. Poirier
> > > >
> > > >Jules H. Poirier, a retired design electronics engineer 
> > from San Diego,
> > > >will be speaking in six British Columbia cities on the 
> > design features
> > > >of the monarch butterfly from Sept. 23 - 30. The lecture series is
> > > >sponsored by the Creation Science Association of British Columbia
> > > >http://van.planeteer.com/~creation>.
> > > >
> > > >Jules H. Poirier:
> > > >
> > > >* senior design specialist electronics engineer
> > > >
> > > >* studied electrical engineering, physics and mathematics at the
> > > >University of California (Berkeley)
> > > >
> > > >* has worked for the U.S. Navy, Ryan Aeronautics and the 
> > Electronics
> > > >Division of Convair
> > > >
> > > >* designer of radar FM altimeter on Apollo Lunar Landing Module
> > > >
> > > >With experience in designing guidance systems, Mr. Poirier began
> > > >studying the guidance system of the monarch butterfly. His 
> > conclusion
> > > is
> > > >that the prior claim of a Creator dwarfs the efforts of 
> > man, and that
> > > >this design could not have evolved.
> > > >
> > > >Poirier is the author of two books on the monarch 
> > butterfly life cycle:
> > > >_The Life and Adventures of Monica Monarch_ (for 
> > children), and _From
> > > >Darkness into Light to Flight: Monarch - the Miracle Butterfly_.
> > > >
> > > >Lecture schedule:
> > > >
> > > >Saturday, Sept. 23
> > > >First Baptist Church, 1650 Waddington Rd., Nanaimo B.C., 7:00 p.m.
> > > >
> > > >Sunday, Sept. 24
> > > >Ridgeview Evangelical Missionary Church, 1097 Hollywood 
> > Road, Kelowna
> > > >B.C., 7:00 p.m.
> > > >
> > > >Monday, Sept. 25
> > > >a) Kings Christian School, 350 -  30th St. SE, Salmon Arm 
> > B.C., time:
> > > >TBA
> > > >
> > > >b) Broadview Evangelical Free Church, 350 -  30th St. SE, 
> > Salmon Arm,
> > > >B.C., 7:00 p.m.
> > > >
> > > >Wednesday, Sept. 27
> > > >
> > > >a) "Talkback" with Bruce Strachan [9:00 a.m.- 10:00 a.m.] CJCI
> > > Radio620,
> > > >Prince George, B.C.
> > > >
> > > >b) Cedars Christian School, 701 North Nechako Road, Prince 
> > George, B.C.
> > > >12 noon
> > > >
> > > >c) University of Northern British Columbia [Room 7-212], 3333
> > > University
> > > >Way, Prince George B.C., 7:00 p.m.
> > > >
> > > >Friday, Sept. 29
> > > >Surrey Alliance Church, 13474 - 96th Ave., Surrey B.C., 7:30 p.m.
> > > >
> > > >Saturday, Sept. 30
> > > >Oakridge Baptist Church, 6261 Cambie St., Vancouver B.C., 7:30 p.m.
> > > >
> > > >For more information or to schedule interviews, call (604) 535-0019
> > > >[Vancouver] Email <creation at planeteer.com
> > > 
> > > >For further reference:
> > > >
> > > >Jules H. Poirier [Bio]
> > > >http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/457.asp
> > > >
> > > >Female Monarch Butterfly's Needles Designed For Its Survival
> > > >by Jules H. Poirier
> > > >http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-267.htm
> > > >
> > > >Design Features of the Monarch Butterfly Life Cycle
> > > >by Jules H. Poirier
> > > >http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-237.htm
> > > >
> > > >The magnificent migrating monarch
> > > >by Jules H. Poirier
> > > >http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/521.asp
> > > >
> > > >http://www.exn.ca/Stories/2000/09/12/53.cfm  [September 12, 2000]
> > > >
> > > >Future looks dim for monarch butterflies
> > > >
> > > >Meanwhile, a new report says monarch butterflies may face 
> > a difficult
> > > >future. At this time of year, monarch butterflies across 
> > the country
> > > >start heading south. Eventually, hundreds of millions of 
> > monarchs will
> > > >make it to a section of forest in Mexico. They spend the 
> > winter there
> > > >and then migrate north in the spring. But researchers say 
> > what was once
> > > >a vast, pristine forest is now a series of tiny segments, 
> > separated by
> > > >farmland. The first-ever aerial survey of the area
> > > >shows there's only about half as much forest as there was 
> > 30 years ago
> > > -
> > > >and the researchers estimate the entire forest will be 
> > gone within the
> > > >next half century.
> > > >
> > > >Researchers Find Key to Monarch Butterfly Migration [May 2, 1997]
> > > >http://www.exn.ca/Stories/1997/05/01/03.cfm
> > > >
> > > >Journey North
> > > >http://www.learner.org/jnorth/spring2000/species/monarch/index.html
> > > >
> > > >Monarch Migration Update
> > > >http://www.learner.org/jnorth/fall2000/monarch/Update091300.html
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > > Before you buy.
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.nwjones.demon.co.uk/
> > "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
> > butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at 
> > Crymlyn Bog
> > National Nature Reserve
> > 
> 
> 

-- 
Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.nwjones.demon.co.uk/
"At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
National Nature Reserve

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