the extremists/ be careful

Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX Norbert.Kondla at
Tue Jan 23 14:52:20 EST 2001

You bet there is a story behind the story. People who want to form their own
considered opinion are encouraged to go to the horses mouth, so to speak,
rather than assume that the verbiage emanating from 'official' sources is
true and unbiased. I know from doing some digging into the details that the
numbers can be terribly misleading if one does not know what they mean. For
example,  one of the folks had some Parnassians which he thought were
legally obtained from Europe. Turns out there was both an import permit and
export permit requriement, one of which was overlooked while the other was
lawfully procured. End result of this paperwork oversight: numerous "counts"
of illegally possessing said butterflies and violation of that stupid Lacey
Act. So the moral of this story is that we better attend to that paperwork
or we will all eventually become evil felons :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Gatrelle [mailto:gatrelle at]
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 11:27 AM
To: drdn at; Leps-l
Subject: Re: the extremists/ be careful
There was once this Chinese American who worked on military, national
security, the anti-bomb, who known what-all top of the top secret stuff.
Well, one day, because some top secret *stuff* came up missing from his
office complex, Republican-out-to-get-Clintonism and who knows what else -
he had hundreds of pages of accusations (facts according the arrestors)
thrown at him to (as Norbert put it) see how much crap would stick. It was
all over the world news. Obviously, guilty as charged! The damned spy!!!
And especially guilty and damned because he was of Chinese ethnic origin
and not white European American genes.
Well, first impressions are lasting ones!!! GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY, as
 (and here is the first key word here) CHARGED.  In the end 99.9% of the
charges were not only dropped, but the Judge who had him locked up for
months as a national security risk, apologized publicly and said he and the
nation had been deceived by partisan and over zealous law enforcement.
Just before the judge released this INNOCENT  scientist he pled guilty to
one *charge* of taking-stuff-home-from-the-office-to-work-on. Even the
press said that this was a face saving thing on the part of the Law and was
agreed to by this innocent man because he just wanted to get out of jail
and go back to the life he no longer had.
Has anybody ever been destroyed in America by the IRS only later to have it
come out that they had not done anything wrong? Even Bill Gates does not
have the resources to fight against the Big Brother when he attacks.
The relativity here to the several people charged and arrested for
poaching, or collecting without a permit in Mexico - is that they were also
tried, and found innocent of many of the things they were charged with.
They pled guilty to some charges -because they had -technically- broken the
law. The judge however, felt that the whole thing was blown out of
proportion and sentenced  almost all the charged to what seemed (to those
who clung to their first impression and ranting, libelous, dispersions) as
a slap on the wrist.
There are still lots of feelings and opinions lingering about all this -
especially in the collecting community. In some ways it is something that
should be left alone. On the other hand there is a story yet to be told.
Some who know the details of this other story are not willing to risk their
lives (literally) to tell it. Probably the best (or worse) person to
contact about this other story is one Dave Baggett - if anyone finds him
let me know.
PS The abstract of this post is this. What specifically were these guys
found guilty of and what was the actual penalty? The degree of a penalty
reflects the severity of a crime (except in the eyes of the victim's family
who always wants blood, and the eyes of the perpetrators mother who always
wants her baby to receive sainthood).
PPS  Tom Kral, John Kimner, and others are not ashamed of their names. I'm
also sure they don't appreciate others cloaking their identity, which only
perpetuates an aura of villainy to them. They are leading normal lives. No
matter what degree they did something wrong (or foolishly) - they have paid
their debt and it is over. They live public lives, have loving families,
and still collect (with the governments approval).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris J. Durden" <drdn at>
To: <leps-l at>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: the extremists/ be careful
> For those of us who joined this list long after the flap about ?Tom (as
> indicated below), all this just whizzes over our heads. Is there a
> of the event recorded somewhere. I am guessing these veiled references
> to past USFW cases of which there have now been several of mixed merit
> mixed outcome. There have been a lot of inches of computer screen devoted
> to vague innuendo that is lost on those of us who joined later. If you
> discuss these issues please provide names and references so we can catch
> up. At least provide a cast of characters. Put up or shut up!
> ..............Chris Durden
> At 08:26 AM 1/23/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> >Let us abandon the question of the "poacher" before Neil drowns us all
> >in data. Neil, would you, as a personal favor to me, post your
> >information *on your web page*. I was here during the court trial and
> >conviction of "He Who Must Not be Named" and remember well his happy
> >decision that he could profitably spend his community service hours
> >posting emails to Our List discussing his crimes, his virtues, and how
> >we might best redeem our own lives as he had been redeemed.
> >All of this has got to be in the archives, and Neil probably stored the
> >stuff he wrote somewhere.
> >But KEEP it on the web page, for the love of God. Many of us set our
> >browsers to reject postings on the subject, by the perps, or even
> >containing the word Tom. Those of us who were too dumb to do so, cursed
> >a lot.
> >Ted Williams wrote an article for Audubon Magazine, the screaming from
> >this list shook the world, and it was a long time before the fragile
> >peace was declared which now endures.
> >As you'll note, there are still hard feelings, here and there, on the
> >collector/anti-collector
> >issue, but it was polarized for a while there.
> >Now we are, most of us, contented on a middle ground where it's ok to
> >collect, ok not to collect, and *not* ok to spring at each other's
> >throats.
> >It is even safe to make small jokes about collecting. As I have a couple
> >of boxed butterflies, and have mounted a few micro-moths for a dollhouse
> >collection, I am myself a collector ... but was at the forefront among
> >the anti-collectors.
> >But now we know each other, we understand each other, and it's all
> >different. Some of my best friends are collectors, and we dig side by
> >side in the same gardens.
> >There are some spots, however, still too sore to probe. Let's not go
> >there.
> >Anne Kilmer
> >South Florida
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

More information about the Leps-l mailing list