the extremists/ be careful

Kelly Richers KeRichers at
Tue Jan 23 15:12:20 EST 2001

As one who works in the public educational field and has to punish =
trangressions large and small on a frequent basis, one item that stands =
out in the cases that cannot be overlooked is the aura of flaunting the =
government laws while the collecting was going on.  The arguments about =
not knowing the law become spurious when the correspondence is read =
between the alleged perpetrators.  While many of us may profess not to =
fully understand the Lacey act and the CITES rules, and might in fact be =
in violation of aspects of it, we do not generally publicly display our =
"in your face" attitude that gets so many in trouble.  As I say to =
students on a frequent basis-"Why are you surprised you  are in trouble?  =
You tried to antagonize your teacher and you succeeded. " These men to =
some extent exhibited behavior designed to antagonize the government-it is =
pretty hard not to know that you cannot collect in a National Park when =
you are making your activity covert, and then one at least tried to divert =
attention from the issue with a plethora of side issues-not that some of =
us have seen this behavior in others ever...
>>> "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at> 01/23/01 11:27AM >>>
There was once this Chinese American who worked on military, national
security, the anti-bomb, who known what-all top of the top secret stuff.
Well, one day, because some top secret *stuff* came up missing from his
office complex, Republican-out-to-get-Clintonism and who knows what else -
he had hundreds of pages of accusations (facts according the arrestors)
thrown at him to (as Norbert put it) see how much crap would stick. It was
all over the world news. Obviously, guilty as charged! The damned spy!!!
And especially guilty and damned because he was of Chinese ethnic origin
and not white European American genes.
Well, first impressions are lasting ones!!! GUILTY, GUILTY, GUILTY, as
(and here is the first key word here) CHARGED.  In the end 99.9% of the
charges were not only dropped, but the Judge who had him locked up for
months as a national security risk, apologized publicly and said he and =
nation had been deceived by partisan and over zealous law enforcement.
Just before the judge released this INNOCENT  scientist he pled guilty to
one *charge* of taking-stuff-home-from-the-office-to-work-on. Even the
press said that this was a face saving thing on the part of the Law and =
agreed to by this innocent man because he just wanted to get out of jail
and go back to the life he no longer had.
Has anybody ever been destroyed in America by the IRS only later to have =
come out that they had not done anything wrong? Even Bill Gates does not
have the resources to fight against the Big Brother when he attacks.
The relativity here to the several people charged and arrested for
poaching, or collecting without a permit in Mexico - is that they were =
tried, and found innocent of many of the things they were charged with.
They pled guilty to some charges -because they had -technically- broken =
law. The judge however, felt that the whole thing was blown out of
proportion and sentenced  almost all the charged to what seemed (to those
who clung to their first impression and ranting, libelous, dispersions) as
a slap on the wrist.
There are still lots of feelings and opinions lingering about all this -
especially in the collecting community. In some ways it is something that
should be left alone. On the other hand there is a story yet to be told.
Some who know the details of this other story are not willing to risk =
lives (literally) to tell it. Probably the best (or worse) person to
contact about this other story is one Dave Baggett - if anyone finds him
let me know.
PS The abstract of this post is this. What specifically were these guys
found guilty of and what was the actual penalty? The degree of a penalty
reflects the severity of a crime (except in the eyes of the victim's =
who always wants blood, and the eyes of the perpetrators mother who always
wants her baby to receive sainthood).
PPS  Tom Kral, John Kimner, and others are not ashamed of their names. I'm
also sure they don't appreciate others cloaking their identity, which only
perpetuates an aura of villainy to them. They are leading normal lives. No
matter what degree they did something wrong (or foolishly) - they have =
their debt and it is over. They live public lives, have loving families,
and still collect (with the governments approval).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris J. Durden" <drdn at>
To: <leps-l at>
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 11:10 AM
Subject: Re: the extremists/ be careful
> For those of us who joined this list long after the flap about ?Tom (as
> indicated below), all this just whizzes over our heads. Is there a
> of the event recorded somewhere. I am guessing these veiled references
> to past USFW cases of which there have now been several of mixed merit
> mixed outcome. There have been a lot of inches of computer screen =
> to vague innuendo that is lost on those of us who joined later. If you
> discuss these issues please provide names and references so we can catch
> up. At least provide a cast of characters. Put up or shut up!
> ..............Chris Durden
> At 08:26 AM 1/23/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> >Let us abandon the question of the "poacher" before Neil drowns us all
> >in data. Neil, would you, as a personal favor to me, post your
> >information *on your web page*. I was here during the court trial and
> >conviction of "He Who Must Not be Named" and remember well his happy
> >decision that he could profitably spend his community service hours
> >posting emails to Our List discussing his crimes, his virtues, and how
> >we might best redeem our own lives as he had been redeemed.
> >All of this has got to be in the archives, and Neil probably stored the
> >stuff he wrote somewhere.
> >But KEEP it on the web page, for the love of God. Many of us set our
> >browsers to reject postings on the subject, by the perps, or even
> >containing the word Tom. Those of us who were too dumb to do so, cursed
> >a lot.
> >Ted Williams wrote an article for Audubon Magazine, the screaming from
> >this list shook the world, and it was a long time before the fragile
> >peace was declared which now endures.
> >As you'll note, there are still hard feelings, here and there, on the
> >collector/anti-collector
> >issue, but it was polarized for a while there.
> >Now we are, most of us, contented on a middle ground where it's ok to
> >collect, ok not to collect, and *not* ok to spring at each other's
> >throats.
> >It is even safe to make small jokes about collecting. As I have a =
> >of boxed butterflies, and have mounted a few micro-moths for a =
> >collection, I am myself a collector ... but was at the forefront among
> >the anti-collectors.
> >But now we know each other, we understand each other, and it's all
> >different. Some of my best friends are collectors, and we dig side by
> >side in the same gardens.
> >There are some spots, however, still too sore to probe. Let's not go
> >there.
> >Anne Kilmer
> >South Florida
>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...

More information about the Leps-l mailing list