Red-spotted Admirals??

[Clay Taylor]

All -

    Thinking back to a comment that Kenn Kaufman brought up in his message
on 7/28;

"birders coming into "butterflying" bring along a
prejudice against using English names for subspecies"

I think that we birders are not comfortable with that practice because we
were never "brought up" that way by Peterson, Robbins, et. al. in our bird
field guides.  Recent trends in birding are paying attention to subspecies
(see the Sibley field guide, for instance), if for no other selfish reason
than identified subspecies  may in the future become new species (in this
recent era of splitters) and thus add to the Life List ( for you
uninitiated, that's the driving force behind some birders).

I recently made a pilgrimage to Mt. Palomar, CA in search of the Hale
Telescope (the Holy Grail of optics) and butterflies with Mike Klein of San
Diego.  The telescope was serendipity, and the butterflies were almost as
good.  I saw about 15 lifers, most of which Mike referred to by subspecies,
often with an English name for that subspecies.  It was a novel experience
for me, a little weird but not particularly vexing.  Glassberg's Western
guide shows subspecies by photo and text, and what Mike was showing me was
easily referenced in the book.

Since birders are often into "games" (day lists, county lists, etc.,), the
trick will be to get "butterfly listing" down to the subspecies level.  How?
Current field guides, literature. etc., that feature subspecies (the older
publications that Ron refers to are often not easy to find), and guidance
from the "pros" while observing in the field.

We "birders" are a product of our environment, so don't dismiss us out of
hand - help us to correct our flaws.  I'm sure that there will be many who
are eager to learn.

Clay Taylor
Moodus, CT
ctaylor at att.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at tils-ttr.org>
To: "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Cc: "Grkovich, Alex" <agrkovich at tmpeng.com>
Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Red-spotted Admirals??


>
> Clay Taylor wrote
>
>
> > Alex -
> >     It's the same old story - money.
> >     Think of all the money generated by the sales of "butterfly
> binoculars",
> > field guides, accessories, etc., and travel dollars that they bring to
> the
> > table.  You don't think the Texas Butterfly Festival is put on by the
> > Mission, TX Chamber of Commerce only because it's a fun event, do you?
> > Heck, if someone wanted to give you money to show them to a new
butterfly
> > species for their life list, would you turn it down?  If yes, why?
> >
>
> Well, it took guts to say that. Money as a motive and then a corrupter is
> such a big topic with me because of all the greed in the church world - Do
> they still sell bibles in Christian bookstores?  (My wife works part time
> at one. I at times tell her to just quit.)
>
> I think Alex and I come from the same point of view. I don't think people
> like he and I are against any of the very _potentially_ positive things
the
> birders are bringing to the area of the broad multifaceted world of
> interest in Lepidoptera. It is what is being destroyed (in our view) of
the
> scientific aspect of it. And to me, the biggest part of what I mean by
> scientific is the preservation of them via biological and taxonomic
> information on them.  By lumping all the aphrodites into one Aphrodite
> destroys the existent knowledge - there are several Aphrodites - some much
> scarcer than others. This knowledge was once in every Field Guide and
> state/regional book published _ for new and average lepsters_  till the
> dumbed down could-be-written-by-anybody ones started coming out. There are
> as many subspecies found in my kid's Little Golden Book of butterflies -
> and it only cost $3.
>
> Many of today's Field Guides are raped versions of Klots, Dornfield,
> Grath/Tilden, Higgins/Riley and on and on. They are gooooood money makers
> though. There is a reason I do not own one single Glassberg book. I agree
> with Alex, and challenge those in the east who do not have the old Klots
> book to get one and use it for just one season. While some areas are
> definately out of date, one might be surprised how ofen it would become
> consulted along with Harris, Allen, Gochfeld, Brock, Klassen, Heitzman,
> Neilsen, Emmel, and then one would be led naturally to Jordan &
Rothschild,
> Scudder, Seitz, Blaint, deeper and deeper.
>
> Next, there is no comparison to be made between _birds and Lepidoptera_ in
> many many areas. For example, I can not say "between birds and
butterflies"
> as that would be inaccurate. The equivalent would be "between birds_ and
> _butterflies, moths and skippers."  It is dumbed down immediately when one
> says "birder - butterflyer".  Thus, when I say there is no comparison
> between birds and Lepidoptera - I am not trying to be smart, elitist,
> scientific, or any such thing in using the word Lepidoptera. It's just
> accurate.
>
> For one (be they professional or avocational) to say "I am a birder" is
> exactly the same as saying "I am an Ornithologist" as nothing is left out.
> Because Lepidoptera are butterflies, skippers and moths I can not say I am
> a butterflyer because most of my interest is in skippers. We have had no
> problem calling ourselves lepidopterists for a couple centuries. I don't
> mind the terms lepster or lepper as a slang, but butterflyer is way off
> base - unless that is all that one is. A moth-er, skipper-er, or
> butterfly-er. Requireing a birder to call himself such represents him
fine.
>
> Asking a moth-er to call theirself a butterflyer would be a big deal to
the
> moth-er. The very fact that many cross over birders probably don't see
> why - says it all.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
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