Count Tradition???

[Joel Lyons]

  Melanie and I were on our way to work at the law
  firm and discussing the "counts."  She was on with
  herself about the control factor (if any) based on
  the area being watched by the variable number
  of watchers and what does it all mean anyway.
  My reply (which met with some satisfaction) was
  that it was something in July that was very akin
  to the Maypole.

Michael Gochfeld wrote:

> Ron's remarks were too abstruse for me. My comments and questions are in
> CAPS (SOME READERS MAY INTERPRET THIS AS "YELLING" WHICH IS NOT
> INTENDED).
>
> Ron wrote:
> "Of course Alex's remarks were not "targeted" at the Brodkins. They were
> targeted to an issue, a cultural practice, a tradition that often in
> many instances is very lean on scientific substance.  I think Alex, like
> myself, agrees with the rational approach and spirit of Hank and
> Priscilla. I also think that Alex, like myself, sees Hank and Priscilla
> as the exception rather than the rule."
>
> WHEN THE XERCES SOCIETY STARTED THE COUNTS, WERE THEY INTENDED TO BE
> "SCIENTIFIC"??  THAT DEPENDS ON HOW NARROWLY ONE DEFINES SCIENTIFIC. IF
> THEY ARE INTENDED TO  EXPERIMENTALLY MANIPULATE A PHENOMENON, THEN NO.
> BUT IN TERMS OF PROVIDING DATA IN A REASONABLY SYSTEMATIC WAY, THEN THEY
> SUCCEED, RECOGNIZING THAT ALL DATA----EVEN DATA OBTAINED EXPERIMENTALLY
> AT HIGH PRICE----HAS ERROR.  THERE IS A WHOLE LITERAT5URE OF ERROR
> MEASUREMENT, ESTIMATION, AND MODELING IN THE FIELDS OF STATISTICS AND
> BIOSTATISTICS.  FORTUNATELY IT IS TOO TECHNICAL FOR ME TO READ OR I
> WOULD PROBABLY BORE MOST READERS WITH IT.
>
> BUT THE UPSHOT IS THAT WE BENEFIT FROM MANY KINDS OF DATA THAT IS NOT
> (AND CAN'T BE) ERROR FREE.
> In balance I must say that "this is how it works" with some and in some
> quarters - and is how it should work. But here in the eastern US?  I
> have seen a lot more "our way or the highway" than reason and a spirit
> of cooperation.
>
> THIS IS TOO SUBTLE FOR ME, RON.  I GUESS IT DOESN'T REFER TO BUTTERFLY
> FLOWER PLANTINGS ALONG HIGHWAYS---OR DOES IT.
>
>  This "bad attitude" and elitism has come from someplace.
> IS BAD ATTITUDE AN INEVITABLE CONSEQUENCE OF ELITISM?
>
> THIS DISCUSSION BEGAN NEARLY A CENTURY AGO WITH THE FIRST AUDUBON
> SOCIETY CHRISTMAS BIRD COUNTS. THERE ARE NUMEROUS PAPERS THAT ATTEMPT TO
> MAKE "SCIENTIFIC" USE OUT OF THE CBC DATA AND NUMEROUS CRITICISMS OF THE
> DATA QUALITY, ARGUING THAT THE COUNTS ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC.  NONETHELESS,
> RATHER ELEGANT MAPS HAVE BEEN PRODUCED SHOWING THE WINTER DISTRIBUTION
> OF BIRDS WHICH (DESPITE THE ABUNDANT OPPORTUNITY FOR ERROR IN OVER 1000
> CENSUSES OF ABOUT 500 SPECIES), THE MAPS AND PLOTS MAKE SENSE.
>
> I ENCOURAGED NABA TO DROP THE 15 MILE CIRCLE, ARGUING THAT BUTTERFLIES
> AREN'T BIRDS (EVEN THOUGH MANY BUTTERFLY COUNTERS ARE ALSO BIRD
> COUNTERS). I LOST, BUT STILL THINK THAT IT WOULD BE MORE PRODUCTIVE TO
> TARGET SPECIFIC HABITATS OF MORE MANAGEABLE SIZE AND COUNT THEM MORE
> CONSISTENTLY.  BUT, I ALSO AM COMPILER ON THREE 4JC COUNTS, SO I DON'T
> PREACH WHAT I PRACTICE OR VICE VERSA.
>
> mike gochfeld
>
>
>
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