Tale of Two Continents --

Grkovich, Alex agrkovich at tmpeng.com
Thu Nov 8 10:09:12 EST 2001 

I'm sorry; I made a misstatement below; I hope no one noticed or that it did
not cause any problem. I also wrote Michael that I, for one, absolutely do
agree with David Wright and Harry Pavulaan on the Azures. There is a lot of
work still to be done on our own eastern species besides the Azures, notably
the "Little Wood Satyrs", the "Pearl Crescents", the "Tiger Swallowtails",
the "Black Swallowtails" (it seems to me - I have a male specimen of "Black"
Swallowtail that was caught lurking around a deep oak woodland on a hilltop
in eastern Massachusetts during mid-July (strange behaviour for polyxenes)
that also has a definite yellow "face" and yellow (or partly yellow- I do
not wish to exaggerate) tegulae), the Buckeyes, etc. etc. etc. It just goes
on and on. Our work here has only just begun.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX [SMTP:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca]
> Sent:	Thursday, November 08, 2001 10:02 AM
> To:	'gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU'; agrkovich at tmpeng.com
> Cc:	'drdn at mail.utexas.edu'; leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Subject:	RE: Tale of Two Continents --
> 
> For sure, one example that continues to amuse me is the deliberate mental
> block that some folks seem to have in accepting the idea that Pieris napi
> does not fly widely over two continents; despite plenty of evidence to
> support the multiple species interpretation and zero evidence to support
> the
> one species interpretation. I guess if it is a white butterfly anywhere on
> two continents then it must be the same species :-) some folks think that
> is
> an example of conservative taxonomy; to me it is ridiculous assumption :-)
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Gochfeld [mailto:gochfeld at EOHSI.RUTGERS.EDU]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 6:25 PM
> To: agrkovich at tmpeng.com
> Cc: 'drdn at mail.utexas.edu'; leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Subject: Re: Tale of Two Continents --
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that the cultural differences (disproporationate lumper/splitter
> ratio)
> may be as important as how much critical
> systematics is being done.  I sense, for example, a certain reluctance to
> accept
> the elegant studies by Dave Wright and Harry Pavulaan showing that an
> azure
> isn't just an azure any more.   Knowing my own distaste for the generic
> tampering going on with American birds, it is easy to imagine that there
> is
> a
> reluctance to accept new evidence about species diversity that rocks our
> "understanding" (or worse, requires that we re-label things).
> 
> Mike Gochfeld
> 
> "Grkovich, Alex" wrote:
> 
> > I would agree with Chris' comments about the paucity of critical study
> in
> > North America. Europe does, howeeer, have a surprising development of
> > species among certain groups of Butterflies, notably Satyrids,
> Lycaenids,
> > etc. Also, the continent is divided and isolated  [AG]   NORTH/SOUTH
> (not east/west)  by the high
> > mountain ranges which no doubt has caused much diversity, and a number
> of
> > species wander or range into Europe from Asia, and also North Africa.
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chris J. Durden [SMTP:drdn at mail.utexas.edu]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 10:23 PM
> > > To:   leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > > Subject:      Fwd: Re: Tale of Two Continents --
> > >
> > >
> > > >Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2001 21:13:55 -0600
> > > >To: Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca
> > > >From: "Chris J. Durden" <drdn at mail.utexas.edu>
> > > >Subject: Re: Tale of Two Continents --
> > > >
> > > >Norbert,
> > > >    I think you hit the nail on the head. The apparent paucity of
> North
> > > > American butterfly diversity does seem to be due to lack of critical
> > > > study. The number of butterfly taxonomists (indeed any taxonomists)
> per
> > > > square mile is well below that of the European countries. Serious
> > > > taxonomists in North America all know about difficult genera,
> > > intractable
> > > > problems, cryptic species  and problems they would look into if only
> > > they
> > > > had the time. Unfortunately these taxonomists are expiring before
> they
> > > > find the time to solve these problems. Are they being replaced? I
> think
> > > > not. Old-style (or even new-style) Museum Taxonomy has been a pariah
> of
> > > a
> > > > specialty for at least the last half century. Look at the
> dissertations
> > > > over this time span. Although there is systematics squirreled away
> in
> > > > some of the papers it is usually overshadowed by some genetic,
> > > > chromatographic, electrophoretic, or now molecular topic. It has not
> > > been
> > > > possible for some time to get a PhD in unadulterated general
> > > systematics.
> > > > We should not be surprised that there are very few PhDs now
> available
> to
> > >
> > > > solve our problems in systematics. A lot of the systematics of the
> last
> > > > half century has been done by amateurs, opportunists and junior
> level
> > > > academics. Although a lot of it has been fine work, it has not been
> > > > considered to belong in the leading edge of current research. At the
> low
> > >
> > > > point of this trend, back in the sixties and seventies I remember
> "great
> > >
> > > > scientists" proclaiming that there was no way we could hope to know
> all
> > > > the species in the world, and that just a sampling from selected
> groups
> > > > was enough. Personal computers changed all that, but we never picked
> up
> > > > the educational thread. We never reinstated the study of descriptive
> > > > systematics in our field.
> > > >    How can we persuade our colleagues in the universities that
> taxonomy
> > > > and descriptive systematics is really important. How can we persuade
> > > them
> > > > to stimulate and educate our future researchers?
> > > >.............Chris Durden
> > > >
> > > >At 12:19 PM 11/6/2001 -0800, you wrote:
> > > >>Well, parts of two continents anyway. For whatever, reason my mind
> > > recently
> > > >>turned to a quick and crude comparison of Europe as defined in
> Higgins
> > > and
> > > >>Riley's field guide to butterflies and then the North American
> countries
> > > of
> > > >>Canada and USA. This said crude comparison reveals that Can and USA
> is
> > > >>roughly at least 3 times the size of europe, has a greater
> latitudinal
> > > and
> > > >>longitudinal spread and seemingly more environmental diversity as a
> > > place
> > > >>for butterflies to evolve. Yet, for some reason we only seem to
> > > recognize
> > > >>about 1.5 times as many butterfly species as in europe. Geographers
> and
> > > >>mathematicians are welcome to fiddle with the crude numbers above
> but
> I
> > > am
> > > >>wondering if the species per area difference is real or if it is a
> > > >>reflection of our relatively more primitive knowledge of the
> taxonomy
> of
> > > NA
> > > >>butterflies and history of lumping different looking butterflies
> into
> > > the
> > > >>same species. Thoughts are welcomed, and so too would be any
> literature
> > > >>references in the biogeography realm or from other taxonomic groups
> of
> > > >>organisms in case other people have wondered about this.
> > > >>
> > > >>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > >>Norbert Kondla  P.Biol., RPBio.
> > > >>Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management
> > > >>845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3
> > > >>Phone 250-365-8610
> > > >>Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca
> > > >>http://www.env.gov.bc.ca
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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