A re-subspecies concepts forward.

Ron Gatrelle gatrelle at tils-ttr.org
Sun Nov 25 21:40:26 EST 2001


Nature potpourri is a Yahoo!groups chat site with 267 members (a little
smaller than leps-l)  They have picked up this thread there from some cross
postings by the owner of the site - Bob Parcelles Jr.   I am here posting
two of them.  I highly recommend this group.  It is _not_ a leps group. It
is focused on environmental issures and thus has people from all wildlife
fields who subscribe.  The URL is:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/naturepotpourri

Here are the two posts.
__________________________

 "Alex Netherton" <alexnetherton at w...>
Date:  Sun Nov 25, 2001  3:18 am
Subject:  Re: [Nature Potpourri] FW: Species Concepts (this is long and
somewhat technical.) a must read


"Subspecies have become less and less popular
since the works of Hennig (1966: Phylogenetic
Systematics) and the subsequent rapid rise of
cladistics and the use of cladograms to summarize
relationships (as well as the rapid rise of competing
species concepts). Subspecies are essentially never
used in most animal and plant groups. "

Curious about subspecies not being used in most animal groups. I am a
lifelong Naturalist, and somewhat of a generalist. What is an Elaphe
obsoleta quadrivittata? (In a manual dated 1991), or a Thamnophis sirtalis
semifasciatus? How 'bout Esox americanus vermiculatus? Or even Quercus
rubra borealis?   It looks like it may be time to revisit the "species
concept", and to
realize that in Carl von Linne's day, all species were considered to be
fixed by divine fiat at the moment of creation, *and would never change*.
Truth is that life itself is very fluid, the gene pools that make up
"species" are very fluid, and that fluidity is changing, and in many cases,
changing before our eyes. The absolute stupidity (IMHO) is calling a
warbler a Yellow Rumped, when there are two forms of it, the Audubon's, and
the Myrtle. Oh sure, they
interbreed where the ranges overlap, +but do you see a raggledy swarm of
intergrades+?    No, you see a few intergrades, with the overwhelming
majority
being distinguishable as Myrtles or Audubons. Now, of course, this goes on
in other taxa, and there has to be some genetic basis for it, and, in all
likelihood, this is speciation, going on, right under our noses.
A'Course, I don't feel like challenging Linnaeus today; Adam named
everything, Linnaeus fixed the names for all time.
Alex Netherton
The Appalachian Naturalist
Asheville, NC
http://www.appalachian-naturalist.com
alex at a...

___________________

joecoffy3 at a...
Date:  Sun Nov 25, 2001  4:59 am
Subject:  Re: [Nature Potpourri] FW: Species Concepts

Nice post Alex,

Working with birds all of my professional life. I find the subspecies
concept alive and well. I found the entomologists earlier describing
a whole different set of criteria. Very fascinating. I have been very
interested in sympatric and allopatric populations. The dynamic
equilibrium of most gene pools (in time and place just seem to be
waiting for something to cause population differentiation). Fluid is
certanily the right word. I hope this thread is boring no one. if you
are a birder or bug watcher or collector or herp person it should be
most informative. But the most sophisticated "subspecies" work most
be with plants. I mean the diferences in niche,etc.

Bob and I have been recently discussing his work with Yellow Warblers
(golden).
He has long been trying to find ecological and behavioral barriers
(isolating mechanisms) to substitute for weak geographical or physical
ones. Of
course in florida there is a very finite geological history. But the West
Indian influence is what makes it utterly fascinating. The Florida Keys is
a
living workshop for one who is interested in
zoological subspeciation. More on this later.

Joe Coffy

_________________________

New from Ron: It looks to me that Andy has painted a picture of these folks
re subspecies that is quite different than what the paint of themselves.




 
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