Polites origenes or P. themistocles?

[Michael Gochfeld]

Ron, thanks for the detailed discourse. It makes my absention on #1 easier to
live with.

But a question?

If one looks at a long series from the same place (any place) o f either of
these species,
how much do the shape of the spots on the dorsal FW vary.  The ones in the
photo don't
closely match any of my local photos or book photos.  How close is close
enough?

M. Gochfeld

Ron Gatrelle wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Will Cook" <cwcook at duke.edu>
> Subject: Polites origenes or P. themistocles?
>
> > Anyone care to give an opinion on these two individuals?
> >
> > http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/pix/xlineskipper.html
> >
> > I've gotten two expert opinions so far - one calls them both Crossline
> > Skippers (P. origenes) and the other calls them both Tawny-edged
> > Skippers (P. themistocles)...
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Charles W. "Will" Cook                  w 919-660-7423
> > http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook            cwcook at duke.edu
> > Biology Dept., Duke Univ., Box 90340, Durham, NC 27708
> >
>
> There is more than meets the eye with these two specimens and these two
> species. These two have been on my taxonomic back burner for more than a
> couple of decades.  When living in Pensacola Florida in the late 1960's
> either Cliff Ferris or Don Eff put me onto the fact that there are two
> subspecies of "themistocles" (one of which remains undescribed -- or at
> least unrecognized) -- just as there are two subspecies of origenes.  (See
> Bflys of the Rocky Mountain States by Ferris & Brown, 1981). There are
> several interesting problems here especially with themistocles re the older
> names. I'll save all that for another post if there is interest..
>
> For those who live out west and up north (from us here in the deep south),
> both of these species are much more fulvous there then they are here.  Now
> "here" does not necessarily mean south central North Carolina where these
> specimens where found and  photographed.  I am still learning that North
> Carolina is a lot more "northern" in its species than down here is the
> lower coastal area of South Carolina. The only half way decent pictures of
> themistocles from the deep south I know of are those found in Bflys of
> Georgia by Harris,1972, plate 8 figs. 1 & 2. Those pictures are not too
> dark. They are very accurate.  I have themistocles from SC., GA, FL
> panhandle and coastal AL.   Some of these males are almost entirely void of
> fulvous and many females have no orangish at all on the upper edge of the
> forewing - though most have an orange highlight to the costal edge of the
> ventral forewing..
>
> The pictures of origenes in the same book and on the same plate figs. 3& 4
> are also accurate and show how dark that species often is in the deep
> south.  Origenes females in this far southern area rarely have any fulvous
> anywhere - less so than themistocles.  In many origenes and themistocles
> specimens in this southern range the only way to tell these females apart
> is that origenes are usually much larger than the themistocles - and also
> by male associations.
>
> (A character which is supposed to differ between origenes and themistocles
> females but that is not visible on these specimens is recorded in Colorado
> Butterflies by Brown, Eff, and Rotger.  "In case of doubt look at the third
> vein from the inner margin of the fore wing, the upper cubital branch.  It
> arises nearer the fourth vein than the second vein on rhena [origines
> rhena]  and mid way between the two on themistocles. These veins can be
> seen best on the underside of the wing."   But, this only works on
> collected and mounted specimens.)
>
> Now, NC should be the area where the lighter northern form is blending to
> the southern very dark forms.  Thus to find a specimen with as much orange
> as is on the second female means it is absolutely a themistocles - for even
> in that NC area origenes females would not have anywhere near that much
> fulvous.  I attribute the lighter color of the central spot to "glare".
> Note the white glare on the thorax where the scales are worn off.   Also in
> the deep south both themistocles and origenes have more creamy FW spots.
> The top specimen is the tough one.  The main thing on it that I see that
> could indicate origenes are the spots on the HW.  However, some
> themistocles have these also. The upper FW costal orange just looks like
> too much to be a southeastern US origenes.  The central spot is odd shaped
> but too fulvous for origenes. I go with themistocles for this too.  BUT
> this could be origenes. It might be best to call this indeterminate.
>
> Ron
>
>
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