Polites origenes or P. themistocles?

[Andrew Warren]

Hello,

Excellent review, Ron!  I agree that themistocles is a nasty can of worms.
Series of Colorado material are clearly larger, paler, and better marked
in general when compared to E OKLA, TENN, and GA series (that I have).  NY
material is slightly more fulvous than the E US material I have.  The
total distribution of the CO phenotype is unclear to me; S UT material is
even larger still with more extensive fulvous areas.  Far western
populations (N CA, BC and vic., probably E WA and ORE) are Freeman's ssp.
turneri (this has been ignored by most authors); these are smaller than
other western material with darker fulvous markings, in some ways 
resembling the SE US phenotype.  Old (1940's) and rare specimens from NE
ORE could represent another separate phenotype (this is another issue
since these pops. need to be rediscovered and possibly only 1 specimen
is extant).

More to the point, I agree with Ron that the very best way to
differentiate female themistocles and origenes is size (this seems
constant wherever the two species co-occur).  I had called the two
individuals in the photos themistocles mostly because I did not realize
origenes had such an extended fall flight in the SE USA.  I admit that I
could not be sure what species the top photo (the "tricky" one in my
opinion) is without seeing the specimen spread on a pin.  It does seem a
bit too fulvous to be an origenes, however, as Ron noted.  I still lean
towards themistocles for both of them (based mostly of the extensive
fulvous areas on both).  

I have noted considerable variation in long series of female themistocles
from any given locality (eastern and western populations show considerable
variation in sizes and colors of spots, and amount of fulvous scaling),
and therefore did not place too much importance on any of the wing
characters showing on the two photos.  Without a way to evaluate the
actual size of the specimens in the photos, definitive determinations are
probably not possible without an excellent knowledge of the grasses
present in the habitats where the photos were taken (origenes feed on
only a few hosts; themistocles on many including lawn grasses).     

Best,

Andy Warren

On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Ron Gatrelle wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Will Cook" <cwcook at duke.edu>
> Subject: Polites origenes or P. themistocles?
> 
> 
> > Anyone care to give an opinion on these two individuals?
> >
> > http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook/pix/xlineskipper.html
> >
> > I've gotten two expert opinions so far - one calls them both Crossline
> > Skippers (P. origenes) and the other calls them both Tawny-edged
> > Skippers (P. themistocles)...
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Charles W. "Will" Cook                  w 919-660-7423
> > http://www.duke.edu/~cwcook            cwcook at duke.edu
> > Biology Dept., Duke Univ., Box 90340, Durham, NC 27708
> >
> 
> There is more than meets the eye with these two specimens and these two
> species. These two have been on my taxonomic back burner for more than a
> couple of decades.  When living in Pensacola Florida in the late 1960's
> either Cliff Ferris or Don Eff put me onto the fact that there are two
> subspecies of "themistocles" (one of which remains undescribed -- or at
> least unrecognized) -- just as there are two subspecies of origenes.  (See
> Bflys of the Rocky Mountain States by Ferris & Brown, 1981). There are
> several interesting problems here especially with themistocles re the older
> names. I'll save all that for another post if there is interest..
> 
> For those who live out west and up north (from us here in the deep south),
> both of these species are much more fulvous there then they are here.  Now
> "here" does not necessarily mean south central North Carolina where these
> specimens where found and  photographed.  I am still learning that North
> Carolina is a lot more "northern" in its species than down here is the
> lower coastal area of South Carolina. The only half way decent pictures of
> themistocles from the deep south I know of are those found in Bflys of
> Georgia by Harris,1972, plate 8 figs. 1 & 2. Those pictures are not too
> dark. They are very accurate.  I have themistocles from SC., GA, FL
> panhandle and coastal AL.   Some of these males are almost entirely void of
> fulvous and many females have no orangish at all on the upper edge of the
> forewing - though most have an orange highlight to the costal edge of the
> ventral forewing..
> 
> The pictures of origenes in the same book and on the same plate figs. 3& 4
> are also accurate and show how dark that species often is in the deep
> south.  Origenes females in this far southern area rarely have any fulvous
> anywhere - less so than themistocles.  In many origenes and themistocles
> specimens in this southern range the only way to tell these females apart
> is that origenes are usually much larger than the themistocles - and also
> by male associations.
> 
> (A character which is supposed to differ between origenes and themistocles
> females but that is not visible on these specimens is recorded in Colorado
> Butterflies by Brown, Eff, and Rotger.  "In case of doubt look at the third
> vein from the inner margin of the fore wing, the upper cubital branch.  It
> arises nearer the fourth vein than the second vein on rhena [origines
> rhena]  and mid way between the two on themistocles. These veins can be
> seen best on the underside of the wing."   But, this only works on
> collected and mounted specimens.)
> 
> Now, NC should be the area where the lighter northern form is blending to
> the southern very dark forms.  Thus to find a specimen with as much orange
> as is on the second female means it is absolutely a themistocles - for even
> in that NC area origenes females would not have anywhere near that much
> fulvous.  I attribute the lighter color of the central spot to "glare".
> Note the white glare on the thorax where the scales are worn off.   Also in
> the deep south both themistocles and origenes have more creamy FW spots.
> The top specimen is the tough one.  The main thing on it that I see that
> could indicate origenes are the spots on the HW.  However, some
> themistocles have these also. The upper FW costal orange just looks like
> too much to be a southeastern US origenes.  The central spot is odd shaped
> but too fulvous for origenes. I go with themistocles for this too.  BUT
> this could be origenes. It might be best to call this indeterminate.
> 
> Ron
> 
> 
>  
>  ------------------------------------------------------------ 
> 
>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> 
>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
>  
> 


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl