Fwd: Re: [leps-talk] Lycaena 'phlaeas'

Tue Apr 16 01:47:45 EDT 2002

>Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 00:47:11 -0500
>To: Guy_VdP at t-online.de
>From: "Chris J. Durden" <drdn at mail.utexas.edu>
>Subject: Re: [leps-talk] Lycaena 'phlaeas'
>
>North American "phlaeas" never seem to develop the tails that the mid & 
>southern European populations do. If our Eastern North American "phlaeas" 
>are indeed of European origin I would suspect a Norse-assisted 
>introduction via fodder for the (Norse) colony at Anse-aux-Meadows (NF). I 
>would suspect that *Coenonympha "inornata"* might have had a similar 
>origin. This would be very difficult to demonstrate, but might be possible 
>by looking at the DNA.
>    For the "phlaeas" model I would suggest looking at the Red Fox *Vulpes 
> vulpes*. In North America the European (probably English stock) was 
> allegedly introduced into Virginia and has spread west and southwest to 
> Texas (where it is pretty puny). Meanwhile Indigenous races persist in 
> the Northern and Western portions of the continent - just like in *phlaeas*.
>    Remember that, unlike us, our forbears delighted in introducing exotic 
> species, as evidenced by Linne's pet Raccoon, brought back from Quebec by 
> Pehr Kalm. I too am a throwback and I love my Red-Rumped Grass Parrots, 
> and if it were practical I would stock my garden with Black Veined Whites 
> and Peacocks.
>.................Chris Durden
>
>At 01:16 AM 4/16/2002 +0200, you wrote:
>>Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX schrieb:
>> > I agree that 'phlaeas' as an introduced organism to
>> > eastern North America is
>> > an interesting 'idea'. As Ken has pointed out there is
>>
>>I read somewhere - I think in a (translated) copy of Higgins' & Riley's
>>'Guide to the leps of Britain and Europe' that _Papilio machaon_
>>'might' be imported to north America as well. If you're interested I'll
>>search for it.
>>
>>Back to _L. phlaeas_:
>>
>>Belgian _phlaeas_ differ from the scandinavian ones in that the colour
>>of the hindwing underside is different.
>>*But* this might be because of the temperatures out there, Belgium is
>>rather temperate, Scandinavia (and if I recall well, the 'scandinavian'
>>subspecies is supposed to live N of the Polar circle) is rather cold.
>>The tails of the S European (I have a nice series from La Palma -
>>Canary Islands and some from Turkey) specimens are indeed longer, but
>>sometimes - in warmer summers (it's easier to collect mushrooms in
>>Belgium) the 2nd generation in Belgium also shows *signs* of these
>>tails.
>>These *may very well* depend on the temperatures during development.
>>There is also the form _caeruleopunctata_ Staudinger: a nice form, with
>>blue spots on ups of hindw. - *maybe* caused by higher humidity and
>>temperatures.
>>I have read some articles in Atalanta about _phlaeas_ being a wanderer
>>- this would of course have a very positive effect on the gene flow.
>>Though Leraut lists _aestivus_ Zeller, 1847 as a subspecies occurring
>>in France (no type location mentioned, but presumably S.E. Europe),
>>several other publications treat all populations on mainland Europe +
>>the British Isles + N. Africa as belonging to the nominotypical
>>subspecies(_phlaeas_).
>>And even though the French like to believe that they live in a big
>>country, if _phlaeas_ is a wanderer, it would not be big enough to hold
>>two ssp.
>>
>>Guy.
>>
>>
>> > substantiate such an 'idea'. Just as I have not been able
>> > to find a solid
>> > argument to support the interpretation/assumption/idea
>> > that we even have
>> > phlaeas anywhere in North America. The eastern temperate
>> > North American
>> > hypophlaeas differ not only in the color of the ventral
>> > hindwing from
>> > temperate European butterflies but also differ in a
>> > structural character,
>> > namely the absence of tails which are prevalent in the
>> > later broods of the
>> > european entity. There could easily be other differences,
>> > I have not looked
>> > closely at these critters. Nothing has ever been
>> > published that I can recall
>> > to demonstrate that all of our North American taxa are
>> > even the same
>> > species, let alone the same species as the European bugs.
>> > The arctic beasts
>> > on both continents are quite different from the more
>> > southern butterflies so
>> > at the moment I view the present published taxonomy as
>> > guesswork, a
>> > down-to-earth descriptor for lumping things on the basis
>> > of superficial
>> > similarity and with disregard for the differing
>> > phenotypes; biologies and
>> > ecologies of these butterflies which function as distinct
>> > biological species
>> > in nature and which are the same taxonomic species only
>> > in the minds of
>> > those who have published their interpretations on this
>> > group of butterlfies.
>> > This is just one of many things that need research rather
>> > than continued
>> > parroting of old published interpretations. Viewing the
>> > arctic bugs, western
>> > cordilleran bugs and the temperate eastern bugs as
>> > distinct species is just
>> > as reasonable, if not more reasonable, interpretation
>> > than calling them all
>> > the same species because somebody said so many years ago.
>> >
>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> > Norbert Kondla  P.Biol., RPBio.
>> > Ministry of Sustainable Resource Management
>> > 845 Columbia Avenue, Castlegar, British Columbia V1N 1H3
>> > Phone 250-365-8610
>> > Mailto:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca
>> > http://www.env.gov.bc.ca
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>> > ---------------------~-->
>> > Buy Stock for $4
>> > and no minimums.
>> > FREE Money 2002.
>> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/k6cvND/n97DAA/ySSFAA/CCYolB/TM
>> > --------------------------------------------------------
>> > -------------~->
>> >
>> > TILS Motto: &quot;We can not protect that which we do not
>> > know.&quot; © 1999
>> >
>> > Subscribe:  TILS-leps-talk-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
>> > Post message: TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
>> > Archives:
>> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TILS-leps-talk/messages
>> > Unsubscribe:  TILS-leps-talk-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com
>> > For more information: http://www.tils-ttr.org
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
>> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>  ------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
>>
>>    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
>>


 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl