Endangered species act

John Shuey jshuey at TNC.ORG
Fri Feb 8 17:26:24 EST 2002


Ok let's turn it around - but not hypothetically. lets talk about real life
examples from my real life (not about hypothetical friends, then  passed on
fourth-hand to a conspiracy minded website).  I'll admit, I'm coming at this
from the perspective of someone who views conservation as an avocation, not
from the perspective of "laws limit my freedom".  And I also work within the
system for a living - so that's pretty much my only perspective for all
this.

So..., I work for TNC - we buy land with endangered species all the time -
often without knowing it.  When a federal species - like eastern fringed
prairie orchid - shows up, the first thing we do is call fish and wildlife
and tell them about it (really - we do).  And the first thing they do is
send someone out top look at the site and offer us advice, assistance,
help...

Usually, what F&WS wants us to do and what we want to do is pretty similar -
but in some cases we differ in our opinions - strongly.  That's when
personal interaction skills come into play - we work out mutually beneficial
solutions.

Take the Karner Blue - its all over a site we own and it gets on our
neighbors land every year.  Are the neighbors freaked - no.  They know that
F&WS has predetermined that the baseline condition is based on habitat - and
that we (TNC) are the sole responsible party.  In fact, they know that F&WS
is trying to develop a legal tool that is designed to specifically protect
them against adverse impacts from hosting Karner Blues (Not quite finished
yet).  Can these people cut their grass, trim their shrubs, do anything they
want with their yards - YES.  And does F&WS know they cut their grass?  YES.

Do we freak when F&WS says that burning habitat kills Karners in droves  -
no - we work out a solution that benefits the federal species and meets
TNC's needs.  Again - this requires that you actually work with people. Not
hate them.
______

So Mike, when you get pulled over by a highway patrolman - do you work with
them or do you call them a "thug with a gun" because some cop, sometime in
the past set up some people illegally?  Which is behavior most likely to get
you what you want?  When you go through customs at the airport, do you spit
at them in disgust because you read about some injustice they performed?  If
a F&WS agent comes to your door, do you call them a "Thug with a gun"?  When
a priest comes to your door, do you ask "what do you want, you child
molester"?

  Do you know what "self-fulfilling prophecy means"?  Have you ever heard of
civility?

I actually feel pretty bad for you, because its obvious that you have some
inner problem with authority and forgiveness.  It must be a pretty heavy
burden to bear, so full of hate and anger.


John





> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Soukup [mailto:mikayak3 at home.net]
> Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 4:55 PM
> To: jshuey at TNC.ORG; Leps-l
> Subject: Re: Endangered species act
>
>
> This may be a little political - and I apologize in advance to all!!!
>
> Actually, John, to me, yes it does.  That is the problem as I see
> it.  Everybody
> in these agencies know who the bad apples are - but they protect
> thier own.
> And, in my book - if you aren't part of the solution - you are part of the
> problem.  and, also, in my opinion, doing nothing in the face of
> evil is almost
> as bad as performing the deed itself.  So, yes, I stick to my
> statement - they
> are thugs with guns.
>
>     Let's turn it around.  If you accidentally killed an
> endangered specie - or
> found one on your property - would you call the USFW.  And, no,
> not a friend,
> contact, or friend of a friend - just an anonymous call to the
> USFW office.  I
> doubt it.  And, if you did, you'd be foolish.  Why?  Because the
> full weight of
> the Federal Govt. is going to be all over you.  To think that
> they would be
> fair, even-handed, and understanding is naive at best.
>
>     On top of that, I believe that at least half of what they are
> chartered to
> do is illegal, immoral, and unconstitutional.
>
> The spanking thing don't make it - you probably deserved it!!!  I
> know I did!!!
>
>
>
> John Shuey wrote:
>
> > This argument doesn't cut it - I can easily get documentation that
> > individuals in every enforcement agency in the US has overstepped their
> > bounds.  That's not the point.  I don't go around calling my
> local police
> > department a "bunch of thugs" because of the rogue actions of one or two
> > cops - do I?  That would indeed be stupid.  But then - that's
> what you are
> > doing.
> >
> > So I guess......
> >
> > I'd better stop.
> >
> > John
> >
> > (Who was spanked once in grade school unjustly - so every ^&^&$% *#$@#
> > teacher I've ever met is a thug - obviously)
> >
> > > To me, it is a matter of "perspective".  Our forefathers set up
> > > our judicial
> > > system, and indeed our entire government under the premise that
> > > it was more
> > > important to protect the rights of an individual - and allow SOME
> > > guilty people
> > > to slip thru the cracks and go free- rather than accidentally
> > > destroying some
> > > innocent people while catching ALL of the guilty.   To me, if
> > > even one person is
> > > unjustly raided, tried, and forced to spend his life savings to
> > > defend himself
> > > - without being reimbursed for his time and trouble - and
> > > apologized to -  the
> > > system is broken.  I can easily get documentation of USF&W
> > > overzealousness in
> > > enforcing laws.  Can you tell me no innocent individual has been
> > > harmed by thier
> > > actions?  I doubt it.
> > >
> > >     You obviously feel that "some innocents" must be sacrificed
> > > for the good of
> > > all.
> > >
> > > I disagree strongly.
> > >
> > > John Shuey wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, 8 Feb 2002, Mike Soukup wrote:
> > > > > > With due respect to Jere, and, as a person who has spent
> > > much time "on
> > > > > > the shady side of the law", I would recommend almost
> > > nothing he says.
> > > > > > If you accidentally kill an endangered specie in the
> USA, keep your
> > > > > > mouth shut, don't tell anybody, and mis-label your
> specimen!!!  Our
> > > > > > USF&W are NOT nice, understanding people.  They are thugs
> > > with guns and
> > > > > > power and they like to use it.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm sorry to hear that, and even more saddened by the
> fact that your
> > > > > advise is probably more reliable than mine!
> > > > >
> > > > > BTW in Finland endangered != protected by law. Here 'endangered'
> > > > > is just a
> > > > > label for species that need special attention for some reason
> > > and while
> > > > > all protected species are endangered, most endangered
> species are not
> > > > > protected. I think most lepidopterologists (in all senses
> of the word)
> > > > > here agree with me if a claim that the protected special have been
> > > > > selected in a more-or-less random way.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > You know - this is BULL SH&&%T.
> > > >
> > > > I work with F&WS folks on a daily basis - they are, by and
> > > large, a highly
> > > > dedicated group of people who care about conservation and the
> > > environment -
> > > > doing the best they can to leave a legacy within the confines of an
> > > > overbearing bureaucracy.
> > > >
> > > > As to the innocents who have been visited by F&WS law
> enforcement - I
> > > > personally know three such people.  All of them had extensive
> > > dealings with
> > > > folks who have pleaded guilty to violations of the Endangered
> > > Species Act or
> > > > the Lacy Act.  All three had many hundreds of specimens that
> > > were "illegal",
> > > > and that were at least temporarily confiscated while legal
> > > cases were made
> > > > against others (I saw one such stash of "evidence" temporarily
> > > stored at a
> > > > museum).  At least one of these friends had their specimens
> returned to
> > > > them - grand fathered into legality (and I don't know about the
> > > others but I
> > > > assume that they have their specimens back as well).
> > > >
> > > > Granted, I may seem unpatriotic to some folks of this list for
> > > defending our
> > > > government (as you know, others have fought and died so that we
> > > can enjoy
> > > > the right to bitch about our government).  But to
> negatively categorize
> > > > every person who works for F&WS as "thugs with guns and power"
> > > demonstrates
> > > > a lethal combination of both ignorance and stupidity that
> is difficult
> > > > tolerate.
> > > >
> > > > Even for a liberal like me.
> > > >
> > > > John
> > > >
> > > > John A. Shuey
> > > > Director of Conservation Science
> > > > Indiana Office of The Nature Conservancy
> > > > 1505 N Delaware Street, Indianapolis, IN 46202
> > > > 317.951.8818
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >    For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:
> > > >
> > > >    http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl
> > > >
> > >
>


 
 ------------------------------------------------------------ 

   For subscription and related information about LEPS-L visit:

   http://www.peabody.yale.edu/other/lepsl 
 


More information about the Leps-l mailing list