[leps-talk] Why aren't Mexico's overwintering monarchs in the news yet this winter?

Nigel Venters nigelventers at onetel.net.uk
Fri Feb 15 03:34:09 EST 2002


Neil Jones wrote:
> Whilst in the examples you cite the satellite photographs do not show the
> full extent of the damage the examples you have left out show more.
> This has been exacerbated by your shrinking the photographs which removes
> even more data. Some of the data you have ommitted, which can be found
at:-
>
> http://www.wildlifewebsite.com/huacal.html
> and
> http://www.wildlifewebsite.com/pelonin.html

I can't seem to open these links provided by Neil...as I am interested to
check this out...you both can't be right!

However it would be helpful Neil if you too did not to use sweeping
statements of
supposition as if they were facts...that you accuse others of using...for
example:

> This extraordiary claim by you would require extraordinary evidence.
> Not only have you failed to provide this you have undermined your case by
> producing massaged data to lead people into false conclusions.

Why can't you just state your case...and let us work this out for ourselves?
Then maybe we could all discuss this sensibly without your paranoid attacks
on people..... If only I could open the links you provided that I can't seem
to open.
Nigel

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil Jones" <Neil at NWJONES.DEMON.CO.UK>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; <TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <Johnsonk at coudert.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [leps-talk] Why aren't Mexico's overwintering monarchs in the
news yet this winter?


> In message <3C6AD41F.1064 at saber.net> Paul Cherubini writes:
> >
> >
> > In my opinion, the satellite and ground photos of the overwintering
> > sites taken over the past 25 - 30 years do not support your statement
> > that there has been a "50% loss of available forest land for
> > overwintering in Mexico."
> >
> > For example, here are the historical 1973 vs 2000 infared satellite
> > photos of the two main overwintering colonies in Mexico where 70% of
> > the monarchs overwinter. http://www.saber.net/~monarch/changes1.JPG
> >
> > Red =            forest
> > Tan =            bare ground (farm land or meadows)
> > White dots = known colony locations over the years
> > White lines = butterfly reserve boundaries (the old ones)
> >
> > Llittle change in the forest coverage is evident.
> >
> > Paul Cherubini
>
> Here we go again. As you are well aware, because it has been discussed
before,
> you  are using a selective subset of the real data in order to support a
> contention which would not be supported by the full set of data.
>
> Whilst in the examples you cite the satelite photographs do not show the
> full extent of the damage the examples you have left out show more.
> This has been exacerbated by your shrinking the photographs which removes
> even more data. Some of the data you have ommitted, which can be found
at:-
>
> http://www.wildlifewebsite.com/huacal.html
> and
> http://www.wildlifewebsite.com/pelonin.html
>
> _Do_ show deforestation but you have conveniently ommitted them from
> your analysis. This shows that your contention is clearly logically
> inaccurate.
>
> Given that deforestation is a problem in large parts of the world. It
would
> seem surprising that it was not a problem in Mexico.
>
> This extraordiary claim by you would require extraordinary evidence.
> Not only have you failed to provide this you have undermined your case by
> producing massaged data to lead people into false conclusions.
>
> --
> Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.nwjones.demon.co.uk/
> "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
> butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
> National Nature Reserve
>
>
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