Glassberg is quite correct.

[Mike Soukup]

Can't help myself this time.....

To compare a Hymenopteran - that uses chemical signals, vision in the non-human
spectra and other methods for finding it's prey and a "human with a net" is
ludicrous.    Second, you only state that "they have effects on the populations" -
well - duh!  What predator doesn't.    Then, you start on Snail.  Sorry, wrong
Phyllum.  Try again.
And, even if the wasp did "make them extinct", it was a wasp that did it - not a
man.  So, you either want man to be part of nature (equating him with the wasp) -
in which case, man causing an extermination is no more evil than any other
"natural" predator causing the extermination, or, you want man to be "separate
from nature" - in which case comparing him to a wasp or a snail is not valid.  You
can't, logically, have it both ways.  Period.

And, not being organized or knowledgable enough to have the details - but I know
there was a study done "out west" where a localized checkerspot colony was
"collected" as thouroughly as humany possible (eggs, larve, pupae, adults).  This
practice had no effect on the successive populations.  So, I would say there is
MUCH more evidence supporting the lack of exctinction by collecting - than there
is evidence supporting extinction thru collecting.

Just my one cents worth.

BTW - I like much of the off-color, off-subject posts.  The freezer's empty, the
moths mounted, labelled and in the drawers.  And, hell, I'm cold and ornery -
gotta keep myself awake somehow!!!

Neil Jones wrote:

> Dr Glassberg is quite correct to assert that _one_of_the__threats
> to the Miami Blue is collecting.
>
> THe Miami Herald article says.
>
> "A chance discovery of a single colony of the bright blue butterfly
> -- about 30 to 50 insects -- on state land in the Middle Keys prompted
>  the association to file a petition in June 2000 for protection of the
>  Miami Blue as an endangered species."
>
> Asswuming this is correct we have a single small and therefore vulnerable
> population.
>
> The Article goes on to say.
> "For Glassberg, every day that ticks by increases his fear that the
> butterfly will be gone forever.
> ``It's hard to imagine more of an emergency situation,'' he said.
> ``The only known colony in the U.S. is this small place in the Keys,
>  faced with all sorts of possible threats: hurricanes, butterfly
>  collectors, mosquito spraying. Any of those could wipe the Miami
> Blue out.'' "
>
> Now for the logic.
>
> It has been asserted, that no insect has ever been extirpated
> by human beings removing individuals from a population. It has also been
> asserted that since this is the case it would be unreasonable to prevent
> human beings from doing this where the insect species is in danger of
> extinction. In order to invalidate the second statement it is necessary
> to examine the question of whether the first statement can be
> disproved as it follows logially from the first.
>
>  Gathering individuals from a population could be regarded as predation
> by one species on another. In this case the predator being Homo sapiens.
> It is therefore necessary to examine whether a predator can affect the
> population of a species.
>
> There are numerous examples of this. For example it is well documented
> that the hymenopteran parasitoid Cotesia bignelii has an effect on the
> population levels of Eurodryas aurinia. There is even an example of
> an invertebrate predator foreign to an ecosystem exterminating entire species.
> This has happened with several species of Partula snails on Pacific islands
> which were exterminated by a foreign predatory snail.
>
> Invertebrates do have a greater potential for population growth and recovery
> than mammals or birds but this does not prove that they are necessarily more
> resistant to predation. Over the long term each pair of organisms will
> produce, on average, one pair of offspring during its life time.
> Insects have just as many predators as other animals. Increasing the predation
> will put stress on the population and could, where the population is small,
> cause an extinction.
>
>  I myself have observed several populations of insects where due to the
> nature of the lifecycle it would be easy to remove all the individuals. I have
> not done so because it would be unethical.
>
> There is of course the well-known example where a documented extinction did
> occur, the British day-flying moth the New Forest Burnet, Zygaena viciae
> ytenensis.
>
> --
> Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.nwjones.demon.co.uk/
> "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
> butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
> National Nature Reserve
>
>
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