degreasing/green coloration

Fri Jan 18 11:43:01 EST 2002

I have been following this discussion for a while now and hopefully am not
too confused.  As I remember, it started off with degreasing and then a
statement for softening the specimen after degreasing.  It them seems to
have moved along into just how to soften a specimen.  If this is true, then
I would like to add my experience.

I use cyanide for my killing jar.  If I have the time at the end of the day,
I try mounting then.  If I do not have the time, I then put my specimens
into a container (Tupperware) with facial tissues settled lightly in the
container and put them in the freezer.  When I have time to mount them, I
remove them from the freezer and into the refrigerator for anywhere from
half a day to a full day. From there I have created a make-shift softening
container.  The container is a pyrex dish about half full of cat litter.  I
put tap water into the litter until it is completely saturated.  I them put
a smaller lid of a pyrex dish upside down into the wet litter.  Then I put a
folded paper towel on the exposed small lid.  I place my specimens on the
paper towel and then put the lid of the regular pyrex dish to cover it and
place it back into the refrigerator for maybe two days.  The humidity from
the water in the cat litter softens the specimens extremely well and I have
never have a problem with any discoloration.

I know it seems like a long process but in the end the spread specimen is in
perfect condition.  I felt quality was more important than to just get them
mounted quickly.  By the way, I do this process for all insects I collect
and mount.

Michael Klein
San Diego

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu [mailto:owner-leps-l at lists.yale.edu]On
Behalf Of Andrew Warren
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2002 12:53 PM
To: Richard Worth
Cc: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
Subject: Re: degreasing/green coloration

Hola,

I have used ammonium carbonate on several occasions.  Overexposure will
turn white Parnassians yellow (a great way to get a state record for
eversmanni!), pink on Schinia to brown, but I have not (fortunately)
observed discoloration in Pierids (or maybe I just havn't allowed them to
sit in the jar too long).  I use ammonium carbonate mostly for my moth
jars (pinch most butterflies).

Andy

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002, Richard Worth wrote:

> Thanks muchly to all who replied.  I decided to post a summary here.
> It seems that it is certainly brought about by exposure to moisture,
> and is not specific to dead bugs.  Apparently, fumigants have no real
> effect in the relaxer...I, too, use PDB.  Seems to be removable
> sometimes.  It sounds like the color is urea.  Is this a by-product
> of legume and crucifer feeders?... nitrogenous plant compounds or
> from metabolism?  Soluble in some nitrogen based solvent?  Maybe
> ammonia could turn the whole thing green!  Any responses by folks
> that use ammonium carbonate as a dispatcher?  I'll have to try
> different things.
>
> Thanks again,  Rich
>
>
> >I, too, have only seen this when relaxing.  From what I can tell,
> >water droplets falling directly on the specimens cause it (don't
> >know what the reaction is).  The easiest way to avoid this is,
> >clearly, don't let water droplets get on them, though this is not as
> >simple as it sounds when using a relaxer.  Degreasing also does seem
> >to get rid of these spots *some of the time*.
> >James
>
> >It is probably due to high humidity at packing, which then condenses
> >into a small water droplet when stored, usually in a cooler location.
> >Spots can also appear when relaxing if the humidity level is too high,
> >because of temperature drop in the evening.
> >Cheers,
>
> >My guess would be urea, as it is the pigment coloration present in
> >Pierids....  It is often seen on the wings of recently eclosed adults
> >before they dry out.
> >M.B. Prondzinski
>
> >The most serious case of the phenomenon described by Richard Worth that I
> >have seen occurred on a very large Pierid I caught in Rishikesh, Uttar
> >Pradesh, India in 2000.  I relax with only water, so Stan's suggestion
> >wouldn't apply.  The bug was big and white - with black stripes and a
slight
> >bluish tint.  I thought I had spilled ink on the wings at first - the
> >blue-green staining ran like water colors.  There was significant
> >condensation in the relaxer, and it was little drops of water that were
the
> >culprits.  I hadn't seen this before - at least not to this extent.  It
was
> >almost as if the bug was painted, and I was ruining the masterpiece with
> >exposure to water.
> >I have no idea what chemical is responsible, but the secret is clearly
> >keeping the specimen away from condensation.
> >Mark Walker.
>
> >On one of my first attempts at relaxing I got things too wet by putting
the
> >things over very hot water.  Got a bluish green color some.  It looked
like
> >the wing got so moist from condensation that soluble pigments dissolved
in
> >the moisture and migrated (like paper chromatography) across them wing.
It
> >was much like ink separates into components on a wet piece of paper.
These
> >were done over pure water (well city water anyway) without added
chemicals.
> >Barb Beck
> >Edmonton
>
> >One might try water without ammonia, chloramines, or chlorine.  What
comes
> >out of the tap is pretty chemical laden -  unusable as is for fish.
Treat
> >your tap water with something like AmQuel first and see what happens on a
> >disposable specimen.
> >Ron
>
> >I have seen these spots on worn and tattered (even a few fresh)
> >  pierids in the field in the tropics many times - presumably caused by
> >rain droplets or condensation; so I doubt that using
> >pure water without any chemicals in the relaxer would solve the problem.
> >Andy Warren
>
> >While this is certainly possible, I tend to agree with Barb - my specimen
> >looked as if the coloration was bleeding right from the wing pigment
itself
> >- not with a reaction from the minerals and stuff in the water.
> >Mark.
>
> >This is just a thought.  If this is something that occurs uniquely to
> >certain groups, Pierids, it indicates a chemical difference from other
> >butterfly groups.  Maybe the chemical(s) that this group possess (that
> >other butterfly groups don't have) react with the fungicide in the
> >relaxer, resulting in a compound that gives the blue-green color. Change
> >the fungicide?  I use PDB, but have not relaxed enough pierids to notice
> >whether I get a blue-green color.
> >Stan
>
> >I've had this happen particularly with female specimens; I always assumed
> >that I might have pinched a part of the abdomen by mistake, or else
> >over-pinched the thorax. The "leak" from the genital end of the abdomen
> >doesn't seem to become manifest until the wings have been opened up
during
> >spreading.
> >and......
> >Yes, it may very well be water droplets getting on the specimen, but I
have
> >this happen even with specimen being relaxed inside the glassine
envelope.
> >So it may also be possible when water vapor comes into contact with the
> >specimen. But it still seems to happen to me when I overpinch (or maybe
it
> >is worse when I overpinch).
> >Alex
>
> >I asked the same question some time ago, no answers.
> >It looks to me like P. rapae and brassicae are much more susceptible to
this
> >than the species from the napi group (venosa, oleracea, virginiensis,
> >melete, bryoniae, ...).
> >I also noticed it on Gonepteryx species, especially the females.
> >If there is a cure to this, I would surely like to hear about it.
> >Guy.
>
> >Has any body every done any formal research into this?  Like do various
> >gasses  alter wing coloration type of thing.
> >Ron
>
> >I will try (clothes) dryer water, as that should not contain any ions
> >(chemicals) (or de-ionised water).
> >However I do not expect that to be any better, as also others found that
it
> >was the condensation dripping on the specimens causing the greenish
> >coloring - condensation which should not contain the chemicals in the
water
> >straight from the tap.  But nobody seems to be aware of a cure ?
> >Guy.
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Richard Worth <rworth at oda.state.or.us>
> >To: <jadams at em.daltonstate.edu>; <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> >Sent: vrijdag 11 januari 2002 19:15
> >Subject: Re: degreasing
> >
> >
> >  > Hey group,
> >  > Speaking of green coloration, does anyone know what that blue-green
> >  > staining is that you sometimes get on Pierids when you try to relax
> >  > them?  I've seen it in both those that were relaxed in glassine
> >  > envelopes and those not.  I originally thought it was something in
> >  > the envelopes but maybe not.  I never see it until relaxing begins.
> >  > Is there a remedy?
> >  > Cheers,  Rich
>
> Richard A. Worth
> Oregon Department of Agriculture
> Plant Division
> rworth at oda.state.or.us
> (503) 986-6461

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