Grkovich, Alex agrkovich at
Wed Jan 30 16:05:07 EST 2002

...and not to beat on a dead horse, but once again let me point out that
what Bob is speaking of is the unbelievably and absolutely astounding (to
me, anyway) grand total of 52 (that's fifty two) listed butterfly and
skipper species in (the state of my birth) Michigan, out of an overall total
of approx.160.

I mean, really, is this some sort of joke? And among this surprising total
of these 52 species (actually 51, I understand one, the Pipevine Swallowtail
[which I found often abundant 200 miles to the south at Dayton, Ohio, when I
lived there] has been removed from the list)  are some really wide-ranging
ones, such as the Hoary Comma, which is also listed. Does anyone truly not
believe that this has been done specifically in order to restrict the
avocational collector, and for no other reason whatsoever? You won't
convince me- I'm seeing the same thing here in my state of current

And, really, I question what good "listing" even does: Here in the
northeast, no one has collected the Regal Fritillary (or the Karner Blue)
since the 70's (the only specimen I ever collected was a female in Elgin Co,
Ontario in 1960 when I was 11) and still, it (and they) has (have) all but
disappeared. It's habitat destruction, pollution, the altering of the
landscape, etc. We all agree on that.

Here in this state, we have for example the Hessel's Hairstreak as a
"listed" species. This despite the fact that a state official told me awhile
ago that "they're in every white cedar bog in the state". And a
Lepidopterist friend of mine from this state, who also collects and who was
involved in the state Butterfly Project about a decade ago, told me the
other day that it "shouldn't be listed, we found it in every suitable
habitat during the days in which we were doing the Project." So, in other
words, and in plain old English, the species is "listed" but in reality it's
a common butterfly, it's just very particular in its habitat, and otherwise
very hard to find even when it's there because of its habit of sitting high
on the branches of its hostplant. Ron Gatrelle also told me that, back in
the 70's when he started looking for it in SC, that he had to use 20 foot
net handles and walk around with his head in the air while dodging
cottonmouths, but they were there in numbers. 

I mean, all of us with any common sense have to work toward putting an end
to all this. Mogens Nielsen wrote in his book on Michigan Butterflies, while
lamenting these listings and the "restrictions placed on avocational
lepidopterists by the state DNR", and therefore, presumably on the detriment
all of this will have on knowledge, " wonders where this data
[necessary to get listings revoked] will come from, without the assistance
of avocational lepidopterists..." 

This is all anti-science, nothing else, and it's on the same level as the
Loch Ness Monster, the giant anaconda, the 30-foot high sloth, bears chasing
people all over the woods, etc. etc. And we've been just sitting around
watching it happen...

I'm done editorializing for the day, I'm going back to work. Repeat after
me: 51, 51, 51....

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Robert Kriegel [SMTP:kriegelr at]
> Sent:	Wednesday, January 30, 2002 3:13 PM
> To:	leps-l at
> The first time I sent the following message it got cut off after the first
> two paragraphs so I'll try again.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> ----
> Bob, Anne, Neil et al.
> It is really amazing to see how you folks have put together a dedicated
> group to work with Miami Blues, and done it so quickly.  I wish you great
> success.  Do you have anyone in an advisory position with your group who
> has previously worked on the restoration of a federally endangered species
> of Lepidoptera in the U.S.?  I don't ask this to minimize the talents of
> your group but to alert you to some of the restrictions your project will
> face if you ARE successful at getting the species listed as federally
> endangered and proceed with your recovery plan.  And no I'm not available;
> I have my pro bono hands full attempting to deal with state listed leps in
> a single, northern state.
> I suggest you contact the Toledo Zoo and talk to them about what it took
> to
> get the federally endangered Karner Blue butterfly successfully
> reintroduced into Ohio.  I recently saw an excellent presentation on this
> project by zoo personnel at the Winter meeting of the Ohio Lepidopterists
> society.  A scientific group which, by the way, welcomes everyone with an
> interest in moths and butterflies be they collector, photographer or
> watcher.


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