killing butterflies for fun???

jh jhimmel at
Wed Jul 3 16:51:24 EDT 2002

Not to get into this wasteful argument, nor do I mean to defend what seems
to be the resurrected Joseph Sugar, but is it really necessary to point out
that there is a difference in most people's minds between unavoidable
collisions with insects whilst driving and actively collecting?  While I
have no beef with insect collectors or collecting (when done responsibly),
it does no one any good to use absurd arguments when defending a position. 

Face it - the act of consciously taking lives - of any creature - offends
some people.  The crux of the debate most often lies within the motives of
that life taking - whether it is viewed by some as hypocritical or not.  And
it is understood even by the most fanatical of the anti-collectors that it
is impossible to go about one's life without stepping on, or running over,
something that is alive.  It should be clear that what bothers them is that
there are those who go out of their way to do so.

That is why this polarizing topic will never be resolved.  There's a
difference within the opposing factions that runs deep through the core
beliefs of the holders of those views.  Using superficial, over-simplified
and tangential arguments just diminishes the credibility of those who use

While I am not a collector, many of the people I respect most in this field
do kill bugs - for hobby as well as science - and I enjoy seeing their
collections - and am grateful they exist!  But I would expect that none of
them would argue in support of their pastime or vocation with that over-used
car casualty scenario.   

Stan - I don't mean to come down on you - this might seem like a rant over a
picayune point - but I guess I read this driving thing just one too many

John Himmelman

BTW - And I'm still not convinced Joseph Sugar exists - not that it matters.

John Himmelman
Killingworth, CT
jhimmel at

 Visit my websites at: 

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-leps-l at [mailto:owner-leps-l at]On
Behalf Of Stan Gorodenski
Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 1:21 PM
Cc: leps-l at
Subject: Re: killing butterflies for fun???

I've been pondering for some time whether 'Joseph Sugar' (by 'his'
standard) could be hauled in for insect(man) slaughter for killing any
insect with his car because of going over the lawful speed limit.

An interesting thing (non-scientific) I noticed while driving through
the Gila National forest two weeks ago. When I drove at low speeds,
about 20 mph, to see what was flying the Speyeria would hit the
windshield of my van. At higher speeds this did not happen, presumably
because the strength of the air flow patterns at the higher speeds
prevented the butterflies from hitting the windshield.    

Paul Cherubini wrote:
> James Sugar wrote 5-9-02:
> > Non consumptive wildlife viewing is the most practical and
> > ETHICAL!! way of  enjoying the outdoors.  I sure hope you don't
> > teach your children that it is all right to murder innocent
> > butterflies.  If you do, then how do you teach them where to
> > draw the line?  Hmmm?
> This past week I was shocked to observe a 10 year old boy and his
> sister hunting and killing wildlife for fun in Yosemite National
> Park while the parents looked on approvingly:
> Likewise along the West Fork of the Carson River in
> the Sierra Nevada Mountains I saw a young teenager
> also hunting and killing for fun in full view of adults:
> Since the parents of these children have taught them
> it is all right to murder innocent fish how will they ever
> teach them where to draw the line? Hmmm?
> Paul Cherubini
> Placerville, Calif.
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