killing butterflies for fun???

Grkovich, Alex agrkovich at
Thu Jul 11 14:09:40 EDT 2002

Plus Neil I might add that you're basically slandering me.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Neil Jones [SMTP:neil at]
> Sent:	Thursday, July 11, 2002 1:53 PM
> To:	leps-l at
> Subject:	Re: killing butterflies for fun???
> On Monday 08 July 2002 10:59 pm, Stan Gorodenski wrote:
> > Neil Jones wrote:
> > > On Monday 08 July 2002 01:18 pm, you wrote:
> > > > Neil,
> > > >
> > > > You quoted the Bible in your post to me in response to my post to
> those
> > > > wretches in Mass. about the "Golden Banded Skipper"? You say that
> > > > homosexuality is NOT immoral? Read what St. Paul say about it.
> >
> > I deleted everything that was offensively and impolitely stated. The
> > result is that there is nothing worthwhile responding to. Cannot there
> > be more civility? The things I snipped appeared to be the kinds of 'name
> > calling' tactics someone employs who cannot logically argue an issue.
> > Stan
> Come on Stan. Lighten up a bit.  You obviously mistake my humour for
> anger.
> I will reply to you on this but I think we are all getting tired of this 
> topic.Perhaps we can change the subject?
>  Certainly in my society ignorant bigotry is something that is often poked
> fun at. Yes, I hope it stung Alex Grkovich. It is about time something
> did.
> Thanks to him, for just one example,  there are a load of people in 
> Massachusetts who now believe that butterfly collectors are a bunch of 
> obsessive nuts. I know this from my private correspondence and from the
> fact 
> he got barred from their list. Consequently collecting is one small step 
> closer to being banned, which you do not want either. 
> There are both serious and logical issues at stake here. The risk of 
> religious extremism of all forms is widely acknowledged as a threat to 
> science. It isn't just the problem of the nuts who want to ban the proper 
> teaching of biology either.(It is not much of a problem in the christian 
> world outside the USA). Only his week there was an article in the Times 
> newspaper , a paper that is here regarded as the bastion of conservative 
> thinking.
> It quoted  Lord Robert May who is, I believe, the current President of the
> Royal Society, our most prestigious scientific organisation. The article
> said 
> that he "was not slow in rallying to the anti-philistine colours".
> quoting him as being against "fundamentalist belief systems, in both the
> West 
> and the East, whose essence is authoritarian, seeking to suppress
> questioning 
> and to limit people's lives."
> Finally, I don't think my  style  of opposition to literal biblical
> bigottry 
> is unknown in the USA either. The following is an extract from the very 
> popular political TV drama, "The West Wing". Here a  fictional US
> president 
> is issuing a put down to a religious bigot who is doing just what Alex 
> Grkovich was; using the Bible as an excuse for blind fear and
> discrimination.
> BTW I have no idea as to the accuracy of the biblical quotes . (Like
> nearly 
> everyone in the UK I am not  a believer and therefore I do not own a
> Bible.) 
> It is the attitude this piece shows that matters.
> "President Bartlet (Martin Sheen): I like how you call homosexuality an 
> abomination.
> Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President,
> the 
> Bible does.
> President Bartlet: Yes, it does. Leviticus.
> Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
> President Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of 
> questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest 
> daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown 
> sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her
> turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I
> ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the
> Sabbath. 
> Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
> to 
> kill him myself or is it OK to call the police? Here's one that's really 
> important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching
> the 
> skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to
> wear 
> gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame?
> Can 
> West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my 
> brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my
> mother 
> in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different 
> threads? "Think about that, will you? Oh, and one last thing. You may have
> mistaken this for your meeting of the ignorant tight-asses club but in
> this 
> building, when the President stands, nobody sits.
> --
> Neil Jones- Neil at
> "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
> butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
> National Nature Reserve
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