killing butterflies for fun???

Grkovich, Alex agrkovich at
Thu Jul 11 14:08:51 EDT 2002

Neil and all,

First, your comment did not sting me. You will remember that I wrote back
telling you that I did not intend to answer you again. I did  not and I
still do not intend to. I am not writing because of that.

Second, I made mistakes with the Mass Leps group; I recognize that. However,
I was new to their group and new to this electronic forum in general, and I
did not feel particularly welcome (a "collector") by them. And it got worse
as I went on with them through the summer. Some of them made mistakes with
me, and I also made mistakes with some of them. Perhaps today I would not
have bothered to comment on or to react to their bias at all. I have since
found other groups and company with whom I am completely comfortable. I will
also note that I did receive plenty of support form other Lep. Groups and
lep. Societies during my darkest t days with MassLeps. 

I hereby apologize publicly and sincerely to MassLeps for my comments and
insults to them. However, I was made to feel very uncomfortable by some of
them and that is that. And no one of any influence in that group ever wrote
me to change that and to make me feel otherwise. I also DID already
apologize to a couple of them last year and never got a response. Neil,
there's always two sides, you should know that. And I'm also not the only
"collector" who has left this group. I know that and they know that. 

Neil, why do you keep up this argument? Why don't you post to the group that
which I said to you in private about the issue you keep raising? I think it
was quite reasonable. Don't hide; post it. And let's see whether any
responsible parents out here will not agree with me.

Neil, end this.


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Neil Jones [SMTP:neil at]
> Sent:	Thursday, July 11, 2002 1:53 PM
> To:	leps-l at
> Subject:	Re: killing butterflies for fun???
> On Monday 08 July 2002 10:59 pm, Stan Gorodenski wrote:
> > Neil Jones wrote:
> > > On Monday 08 July 2002 01:18 pm, you wrote:
> > > > Neil,
> > > >
> > > > You quoted the Bible in your post to me in response to my post to
> those
> > > > wretches in Mass. about the "Golden Banded Skipper"? You say that
> > > > homosexuality is NOT immoral? Read what St. Paul say about it.
> >
> > I deleted everything that was offensively and impolitely stated. The
> > result is that there is nothing worthwhile responding to. Cannot there
> > be more civility? The things I snipped appeared to be the kinds of 'name
> > calling' tactics someone employs who cannot logically argue an issue.
> > Stan
> Come on Stan. Lighten up a bit.  You obviously mistake my humour for
> anger.
> I will reply to you on this but I think we are all getting tired of this 
> topic.Perhaps we can change the subject?
>  Certainly in my society ignorant bigotry is something that is often poked
> fun at. Yes, I hope it stung Alex Grkovich. It is about time something
> did.
> Thanks to him, for just one example,  there are a load of people in 
> Massachusetts who now believe that butterfly collectors are a bunch of 
> obsessive nuts. I know this from my private correspondence and from the
> fact 
> he got barred from their list. Consequently collecting is one small step 
> closer to being banned, which you do not want either. 
> There are both serious and logical issues at stake here. The risk of 
> religious extremism of all forms is widely acknowledged as a threat to 
> science. It isn't just the problem of the nuts who want to ban the proper 
> teaching of biology either.(It is not much of a problem in the christian 
> world outside the USA). Only his week there was an article in the Times 
> newspaper , a paper that is here regarded as the bastion of conservative 
> thinking.
> It quoted  Lord Robert May who is, I believe, the current President of the
> Royal Society, our most prestigious scientific organisation. The article
> said 
> that he "was not slow in rallying to the anti-philistine colours".
> quoting him as being against "fundamentalist belief systems, in both the
> West 
> and the East, whose essence is authoritarian, seeking to suppress
> questioning 
> and to limit people's lives."
> Finally, I don't think my  style  of opposition to literal biblical
> bigottry 
> is unknown in the USA either. The following is an extract from the very 
> popular political TV drama, "The West Wing". Here a  fictional US
> president 
> is issuing a put down to a religious bigot who is doing just what Alex 
> Grkovich was; using the Bible as an excuse for blind fear and
> discrimination.
> BTW I have no idea as to the accuracy of the biblical quotes . (Like
> nearly 
> everyone in the UK I am not  a believer and therefore I do not own a
> Bible.) 
> It is the attitude this piece shows that matters.
> "President Bartlet (Martin Sheen): I like how you call homosexuality an 
> abomination.
> Jenna Jacobs: I don't say homosexuality is an abomination, Mr. President,
> the 
> Bible does.
> President Bartlet: Yes, it does. Leviticus.
> Jenna Jacobs: 18:22.
> President Bartlet: Chapter and verse. I wanted to ask you a couple of 
> questions while I have you here. I'm interested in selling my youngest 
> daughter into slavery as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. She's a Georgetown 
> sophomore, speaks fluent Italian, always cleared the table when it was her
> turn. What would a good price for her be? While thinking about that, can I
> ask another? My Chief of Staff Leo McGarry insists on working on the
> Sabbath. 
> Exodus 35:2 clearly says he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
> to 
> kill him myself or is it OK to call the police? Here's one that's really 
> important because we've got a lot of sports fans in this town: touching
> the 
> skin of a dead pig makes one unclean. Leviticus 11:7. If they promise to
> wear 
> gloves, can the Washington Redskins still play football? Can Notre Dame?
> Can 
> West Point? Does the whole town really have to be together to stone my 
> brother John for planting different crops side by side? Can I burn my
> mother 
> in a small family gathering for wearing garments made from two different 
> threads? "Think about that, will you? Oh, and one last thing. You may have
> mistaken this for your meeting of the ignorant tight-asses club but in
> this 
> building, when the President stands, nobody sits.
> --
> Neil Jones- Neil at
> "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
> butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
> National Nature Reserve
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