[leps-talk] Re: Tiger Swallowtail hybrids

Grkovich, Alex agrkovich at tmpeng.com
Wed Jun 19 17:05:33 EDT 2002


I haven't heard Mr. McAvoy complaining about the recent and rather troubling
(not to mention absolutely unscientific) usage of  the ugly name "Red
Spotted Admiral" by the lady from Wisconsin (which is, by the way, one of
the hotbeds in terms of occurrence of the two major subspecies and an array
of hybrids) in her recent article to the Lep. Society Newsletter. 

By the way, where's the leadership of the Society, in terms of standing up
and putting an end to this sort of c*ap in the Newsletter? Is enough not
enough? 

Apparently, this sort of unscientific "lumping" is acceptable.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX [SMTP:Norbert.Kondla at gems3.gov.bc.ca]
> Sent:	Wednesday, June 19, 2002 5:05 PM
> To:	'Ron Gatrelle'; Harry Pavulaan; leps-talk; Leplist
> Cc:	tmcavoy at vt.edu
> Subject:	RE: [leps-talk] Re: Tiger Swallowtail hybrids
> 
> Yes it really is quite sad that we have some crap artists among us who
> think
> they know everything and like to belittle the work of other people. They
> should spend more time in the field and less time rendering ignorant
> opinions from a brief glance at some specimens in selected museums. An
> open
> mind really helps to learn what is going on; too many closed minds passing
> as taxonomists. The only legitimate function any paid taxonomist has, is
> to
> provide advice to biologists and others as to the known and assumed
> relationships among organisms. They do not dictate taxonomic
> interpetations
> to others. Keep up the excellent work, Harry and David. Please try to
> ignore
> the ignoramuses -- :-)
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ron Gatrelle [mailto:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 1:27 PM
> To: Harry Pavulaan; leps-talk; Leplist
> Cc: tmcavoy at vt.edu
> Subject: [leps-talk] Re: Tiger Swallowtail hybrids
> 
> 
> I am sorry to be so honest but the post by McAvoy is just plain stupid -
> as
> well as ignorant.  It is ignorant as it has no knowledge of the published
> paper.  This is evidenced by the insulting suggestion that someone should
> undertake lab rearing studies - something the authors did repeatedly for
> years and results recorded in the paper.   It is stupid for why on earth
> would one want to put a tomato into a machine to find out what it tastes
> like when all one has to do is take of bite of the real thing?   From PA
> to
> GA there is a LAB called nature.  It is plain as the taste in one's mouth
> what exists there.
> 
> Over thousands of square miles (stepping into the REAL rearing cage) one
> finds millions of specimens of P. appalachiensis and ZERO hybrids.  For
> hundreds of miles around the TL in NC (a few miles from the GA state line)
> there are only two species of Tiger Swallowtails - glaucus and
> appalachiensis.  They are as different as day and night.  Glaucus comes
> out
> in numbers at the end of March into April and first of May in this area.
> It is gone by mid June and slowly reappears in the summer broods from the
> end of June to frost.  (The authors bred these glaucus broods from each
> other.)   At the end of April appalachiensis comes out and is gone by the
> end of June.  It dwarfs glaucus both in its individual size and in the
> numbers of specimens - it outnumbers glaucus 10 to 1.  At higher
> elevations
> appalachiensis is the ONLY species in spring.   Later in the year _summer_
> glaucus (which are much smaller than _spring_ appalachiensis) disperse to
> the higher elevations - but can not breed there as the season is too short
> (Canadian zone).
> 
> 
> I am not going to sit by and let the crap artists in the Northeastern US
> do
> to Pavulaan and Wright and appalachiensis what they have done with them re
> Celastrina idella.   Thousands of man hours over years and years have been
> put into this research by these two.  But - there are still people who
> think the earth is flat too.  More comments follow below...
> 
> Ron Gatrelle
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harry Pavulaan" <harrypav at hotmail.com>
> To: <NYSButterflies at yahoogroups.com>; <valeps at yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <tmcavoy at vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:33 PM
> Subject: Tiger Swallowtail hybrids
> 
> 
> > Tom McAvoy wrote:
> >
> > <<
> > According to Ernst Mayr (Principles of Systematic Zoology 1969) and many
> > other systematics   [ the word here you want is systematists]
> 
> >the definition of a species is: "groups of actually (or
> > potentially) interbreeding natural populations which are reproductively
> 
> [note your own quote here "natural populations"  not lab populations]
> 
> > isolated from other such groups". Seems to me the real test of whether a
> > group of animals is a separate species from another group that is
> slightly
> > dissimilar in appearance is to see if they produce viable offspring i.e.
> 
> [ you only see these as "slightly" dissimilar in appearance because you
> have no idea what they are or how to ID them.  To some people Monarchs and
> Viceroys look identical too.  You only show how little you know.  ]
> 
> > cage Eastern Tiger Swallowtails with Appalachian Tiger Swallowtails
> might
> be
> > worth a try.  I know getting successful reproduction from know species
> is
> > difficult but it would worth a try. NOT getting offspring when eastern &
> > Appalachians are caged may not prove they are separate species but
> getting
> > offspring would definitely confirm that they are the same species - the
> > eastern.
> 
> [Who are you????   All kinds of offspring can be obtained by crossing all
> kinds of diverse taxa.  It is what these offspring do or do not do that is
> most important - back crosses etc.  There are people (dealers) who sell
> weird cross bred offspring all the time.  Simply getting some offspring
> proves nothing re speciation.   Heads you win, tails they loose! = If they
> don't reproduce it proves nothing but if the cross produces a few
> [infertile] males it proves they are the same!!!!    Further, many many
> systematists now laugh at Myar and don't consider the biological species
> concept worth much of anything any more. ]
> 
> Harry's nice reply snipped.......
> 
> 
> 
> 
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