[leps-talk] Re: Tiger Swallowtail hybrids

[Kondla, Norbert FOR:EX]

Yes it really is quite sad that we have some crap artists among us who think
they know everything and like to belittle the work of other people. They
should spend more time in the field and less time rendering ignorant
opinions from a brief glance at some specimens in selected museums. An open
mind really helps to learn what is going on; too many closed minds passing
as taxonomists. The only legitimate function any paid taxonomist has, is to
provide advice to biologists and others as to the known and assumed
relationships among organisms. They do not dictate taxonomic interpetations
to others. Keep up the excellent work, Harry and David. Please try to ignore
the ignoramuses -- :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: Ron Gatrelle [mailto:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org]
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 1:27 PM
To: Harry Pavulaan; leps-talk; Leplist
Cc: tmcavoy at vt.edu
Subject: [leps-talk] Re: Tiger Swallowtail hybrids


I am sorry to be so honest but the post by McAvoy is just plain stupid - as
well as ignorant.  It is ignorant as it has no knowledge of the published
paper.  This is evidenced by the insulting suggestion that someone should
undertake lab rearing studies - something the authors did repeatedly for
years and results recorded in the paper.   It is stupid for why on earth
would one want to put a tomato into a machine to find out what it tastes
like when all one has to do is take of bite of the real thing?   From PA to
GA there is a LAB called nature.  It is plain as the taste in one's mouth
what exists there.

Over thousands of square miles (stepping into the REAL rearing cage) one
finds millions of specimens of P. appalachiensis and ZERO hybrids.  For
hundreds of miles around the TL in NC (a few miles from the GA state line)
there are only two species of Tiger Swallowtails - glaucus and
appalachiensis.  They are as different as day and night.  Glaucus comes out
in numbers at the end of March into April and first of May in this area.
It is gone by mid June and slowly reappears in the summer broods from the
end of June to frost.  (The authors bred these glaucus broods from each
other.)   At the end of April appalachiensis comes out and is gone by the
end of June.  It dwarfs glaucus both in its individual size and in the
numbers of specimens - it outnumbers glaucus 10 to 1.  At higher elevations
appalachiensis is the ONLY species in spring.   Later in the year _summer_
glaucus (which are much smaller than _spring_ appalachiensis) disperse to
the higher elevations - but can not breed there as the season is too short
(Canadian zone).


I am not going to sit by and let the crap artists in the Northeastern US do
to Pavulaan and Wright and appalachiensis what they have done with them re
Celastrina idella.   Thousands of man hours over years and years have been
put into this research by these two.  But - there are still people who
think the earth is flat too.  More comments follow below...

Ron Gatrelle

----- Original Message -----
From: "Harry Pavulaan" <harrypav at hotmail.com>
To: <NYSButterflies at yahoogroups.com>; <valeps at yahoogroups.com>
Cc: <tmcavoy at vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:33 PM
Subject: Tiger Swallowtail hybrids


> Tom McAvoy wrote:
>
> <<
> According to Ernst Mayr (Principles of Systematic Zoology 1969) and many
> other systematics   [ the word here you want is systematists]

>the definition of a species is: "groups of actually (or
> potentially) interbreeding natural populations which are reproductively

[note your own quote here "natural populations"  not lab populations]

> isolated from other such groups". Seems to me the real test of whether a
> group of animals is a separate species from another group that is
slightly
> dissimilar in appearance is to see if they produce viable offspring i.e.

[ you only see these as "slightly" dissimilar in appearance because you
have no idea what they are or how to ID them.  To some people Monarchs and
Viceroys look identical too.  You only show how little you know.  ]

> cage Eastern Tiger Swallowtails with Appalachian Tiger Swallowtails might
be
> worth a try.  I know getting successful reproduction from know species is
> difficult but it would worth a try. NOT getting offspring when eastern &
> Appalachians are caged may not prove they are separate species but
getting
> offspring would definitely confirm that they are the same species - the
> eastern.

[Who are you????   All kinds of offspring can be obtained by crossing all
kinds of diverse taxa.  It is what these offspring do or do not do that is
most important - back crosses etc.  There are people (dealers) who sell
weird cross bred offspring all the time.  Simply getting some offspring
proves nothing re speciation.   Heads you win, tails they loose! = If they
don't reproduce it proves nothing but if the cross produces a few
[infertile] males it proves they are the same!!!!    Further, many many
systematists now laugh at Myar and don't consider the biological species
concept worth much of anything any more. ]

Harry's nice reply snipped.......



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