Killing MOTHS for fun ;>)

Wed May 15 20:11:50 EDT 2002

This is a very good explanation, but I do not think it will satisfy
"Joseph". By the way, "Joseph" still hasn't answered my last email as to
why he is not using his school address, and instead is using a 'hotmail'
address which gives the strong appearance of someone hiding their true
identity.

I do not think the good arguments below will satisfy "Joseph" because,
from my perspective, what he has done is extended his own being to
butterflies (and now moths it looks like). As a result, killing a
butterfly (or moth) will be a personal attack on him, no matter how
insignificant such an act is in terms of maintaining species diversity,
and a population of an organism. In his mind, it has become a 'human'
moral issue (hence use of such terms as murder) but it is not. The
danger of people like "Joseph" is that there may be many like him whose
fuzzy thinking and biased views of morality (only what he considers
beautiful is worthy of protection) might influence others that have
misplaced sentiments.

I think the best weapon against such people is not through logical
argument, but through showing, as pointed and harshly and aggressively
as possible, the hypocrisy in what they are espousing when it is
compared to the conduct of their own life. Some of this has already been
done by others, such as pointing out how many insects he kills by
driving his car. Logical argument will not work because ultimately the
group that has to be convinced are the law makers and voters, many who
might be swayed by the emotional and non-scientific arguments of the
kind "Joseph" is espousing.
Stan

Nick Greatorex-Davies wrote:
> 
> Hi Joseph,
> 
> Moths and butterflies (and other insects) are species which have a strategy to cope with large numbers of them being killed at all stages of their life cycle (though the most vulnerable stage varies between species) - they produce a large number of offspring per female (100s sometimes 1000s). They can usually quickly bounce back from times of heavy predation, the deleterious effects of extreme weather conditions or disease, providing their favoured habitat remains. Once these pressures moderate, then they will increase rapidly to the level that their habitat can support, but continuing to be moderated by such factors as predation, parasitism and weather. Part of what we call the 'balance of nature'.
> 
> Human beings (the few of us that collect, as we have been talking about here) are just another predator, but one that almost always has an insignificant effect on the population levels of any of these species. However other human beings (and sometimes the same ones) who degrade or destroy habitat through various, what most might consider acceptable, practices (e.g. intensive farming, deforestation, modern forestry practices, building, drainage, overgrazing, introduction of 'alien' species, etc.) - now they have an enormous impact on populations and sometimes whole species pushing them to the brink of extinction and beyond. Most of those who kill butterflies and moths etc. deliberately in the way that is being discussed here (i.e. not farmers and foresters with insecticides), do so because they are fascinated by them. They want to learn about them, to study them and to conserve them. In short they are (mostly) the people who most care about them, and are the ones that have !
th!
> e most knowledge and understanding to apply to conserve them. (And yes it is satisfying building up a reference collection - so? But it is not the killing we enjoy). To ban the collecting of butterflies and moths would be to stifle their study (as has happened in Germany and Spain) which would be bad news for the insects seeing as we dominate this planet so much. In order to conserve them we need to know about them, where they are, to understand their ecology etc. And collecting is an important part of the process.
> 
> The few among us that do it just for fun to 'stamp collect' them are very rarely a problem to the insect populations, even the rare ones. Even where there are documented cases of intensive commercial collecting of highly apparent (easily found, seen and caught) species which have become restricted to one or a very few sites, there are very few cases (I cannot think of any insect - except perhaps ... was it the the Mitchell's Satyr butterfly) where the demise of the species could definitely be attributed to collecting, (though in some cases it almost certainly did not help and may have been the final straw!). At the end of the day it is nearly always due to loss of suitable habitat. However in these cases I would agree that collecting should be prohibited (as it is for certain species here in the UK) to help the remaining population(s) to survive, but without a big habitat restoration project, the species is almost certainly doomed in the longer term anyway (and I'm thinkin!
g !
> in 10s, maybe 100s or possible 1000s of years - not millions here).
> 
> I think you will find that most on this list would advocate responsible collecting seeking not to collect to a degree that is likely to be deleterious to the survival of insect populations. In the UK we have a code of insect collecting which many seek to follow.
> 
> Just some thoughts, and Joseph I do hope the above does not sound too patronising, but I am just trying to explain things as I understand them in a simple, clear and hopefully helpful way.
> 
> Kind regards
> Nick G-D
> 
> Nick Greatorex-Davies
> CEH Monks Wood, Huntingdon UK
> 
> My main interest these days is in the smaller moths (microlepidoptera) (though I mostly study butterfies as my job). Many of these (but a relatively small proportion in the UK at least) can only reliably be identified by examining their genitalia - often by dissection (I'm not joking!). To find out what they are they have to be killed - but only a small sample of a population.
> 
> 
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