[leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence

Mon May 27 13:29:39 EDT 2002

Hi Greg

This is a very interesting piece of information, why? - because Luis Otero
told me that Pseudolycaena and Evenus regalis are canibalistic: from a given
egg mass, if left "ensemble" ONLY ONE pupates to adult. I've found some
isolated Pseudolycaena larvae from time to time (on Erythrina speciosa
flowers, by the way), not knowing what it was and, really, only one
survived.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Nielsen" <g_nielse at bellsouth.net>
To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 11:34 PM
Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence

> In Colombia, Pseudolycaena marsyas lays eggs in groups of 7-12 and the
> larvae are gregarious for the first couple of instars on tender new growth
> leaves. Later instars are usually found on separate older leaves but
> sometimes you find 2 or 3 larvae on the same leaf.
>
> Greg Nielsen
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorge Bizarro" <bizarro at bio.ufpr.br>
> To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 1:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence
>
>
> > Yes, I agree; indeed , my question was on the oddity of all the
gregarious
> > species that I was able to rear, in diferent families, from egg to pupa
> > (Actinotes run away from each other after 5 th instar) presenting female
> > emergence first. I confess they were not too many. So it would be
> > interesting to know of others in this condition, to see how far the
> > phenomenon is spead out among Lepidoptera; for instance:
> >
> > Asterocampa spp.
> > Eucheira socialis
> > Baronia brevicornis
> > Thaumatopeia sp, (Pine processionary)
> > Dione sp. (Heliconian)
> > Euphydryas spp.
> >
> > Besides: is anyone aware of gregarious Lycaenidae... I can't remember a
> > single one, but there are a few in Riodinidae (or Riodininae?).
> >
> > If there isn't a single gregarious species of Lycaenidae, that would be
> > something really remarkable, for some reason.
> >
> > Jorge
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Nigel Venters" <nigelventers at ntlworld.com>
> > To: <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 5:51 AM
> > Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence
> >
> >
> > > Neil Jones wrote:
> > > > The simple explanation as to why males usually hatch first is that
> they
> > > > develop quicker, being smaller. The larvae pupate earlier and
> therefore
> > > the
> > > > adults emerge earlier.
> > >
> > > Well this is an easy explanation that I have seen written many times
> > > before...but I ask myself...why? If it were not advantageous for the
> males
> > > to hatch first (generally)...then they wouldn't have developed this
> > strategy
> > > in the first place....also using your own rule of thumb...if we apply
it
> > to
> > > the original question...then we must assume that all gregarious
> species...
> > > where the females hatch first..... the females will be smaller than
the
> > > males...I don't think so. There must be more to it than this. Try some
> > hand
> > > pairing with Papilio or Nymphalid males less than 3 days old and see
how
> > you
> > > get on.
> > > Nigel
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Neil Jones" <neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk>
> > > To: "Nigel Venters" <nigelventers at ntlworld.com>;
<bizarro at bio.ufpr.br>;
> > > <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; "leps-talk" <TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 7:37 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [leps-talk] MALE x FEMALE emergence
> > >
> > >
> > > > On Monday 20 May 2002 09:51 pm, Nigel Venters wrote:
> > > > > Here's a shot at it!
> > > > >
> > > > > In many species males usually hatch first as their claspers and
> > aedeagus
> > > > > need to harden fully before they can mate successfully..often a
few
> > > > > days...this  allows some dispersion to take place to reduce the
> chance
> > > of
> > > > > pairing with a female from their own brood.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I don't think that this is the ultimate reason for males emerging
> > earlier.
> > > > When you look at the length of the adult life span ability to harden
> and
> > > mate
> > > > earlier would be likely to be subject to high evolutionary
pressures.
> > > > It would be unlikely that evolution would deliberately delay mating
> > > > for this reason alone. Even the dispersal argument wouldn't
> necessarily
> > be
> > > > advantagious. It depends on the size of the population in small
> > > populations
> > > > The Allee Effect could even increase the risk of local extinctions.
> > > >
> > > > The simple explanation as to why males usually hatch first is that
> they
> > > > develop quicker, being smaller. The larvae pupate earlier and
> therefore
> > > the
> > > > adults emerge earlier.
> > > >
> > > > There are other intincitve mechanisms that work against sibling
> matings.
> > > > Instictive measures like this are not uncommon. There is one in Homo
> > > sapiens.
> > > >
> > > > > Maybe in gregarious species...as there is a high concentration of
> the
> > > same
> > > > > brood in exactly the same place...nature by allowing the females
to
> > > hatch
> > > > > first causes an even further dispersion to occur before the males
> from
> > > the
> > > > > same brood to hatch, mature and start to pair, thus making it
> unlikely
> > > to
> > > > > pair with a sibling. Nigel
> > > > >   ----- Original Message -----
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Neil Jones- Neil at nwjones.demon.co.uk http://www.butterflyguy.com/
> > > > NOTE NEW WEB ADDRESS
> > > > "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
> > > > butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn
> Bog
> > > > National Nature Reserve
> > >
> > >
> > >
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