Monarch Migration Predicted to be Extinct within 16 years

Charles Bordelon legitintellexit at
Tue Oct 7 20:02:26 EDT 2003

Actually, I'm agreeing with you, Pat.  It's the other stuff all day that
really bugs me.  cb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Foley" <patfoley at>
To: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at>
Cc: <monarch at>; <leps-l at>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Monarch Migration Predicted to be Extinct within 16 years

> Ron,
> Human interest in nature extends beyond the material substances
> involved. I believe that you recognize this as much as anyone.
> If we kept all the DNA of every organism and removed their behaviors,
> cultures and strategies, the world would be a more empty place, whether
> or not humans were around to observe the phenomena that were gone.
> Patrick
> patfoley at
> Ron Gatrelle wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Patrick Foley" <patfoley at>
> > Subject: Re: Monarch Migration Predicted to be Extinct within 16 years
> >
> >
> >
> >>Did Brower blunder? Or did he warn? Is the habitat in Mexico secure now?
> >>Brower gets ten more years on his "blunder", based on the quote you
> >>link. And note, Brower is not claiming that Monarchs will be extinct in
> >>ten years, he is claiming that the Eastern migratory phenomenon is
> >>likely to be extinguished. I think Brower may be wrong, partly because
> >>he was right to push for the protection of the overwintering sites. But
> >>I also think that the migratory phenomenon is more fragile than you do.
> >>At some point of overwintering mortality in Mexico, the Eastern monarch
> >>population is going to be under strong selection to avoid it.
> >
> >
> > _IF_ pretty much everyone agrees that this is not a matter of potential
> > species extinction but preservation of a phenomenon (strategy actually),
> > then why is the _phenomenon_ so important? Humans are the only creature
> > earth that is aware of this phenomenon is and what it is about.
> >
> > Knowing this is really about a phenomenon (like Old Faithful) tells us
> > we now have a growing multimillion dollar tourist industry growing about
> > it.   Fly the thousands of Monarch Tourists (or shallow phenomenon
> > tourists?) on fossil fuel guzzling planes to Mexico full, build
> > throw in a few night spots, bars, build, pollute, destroy X patch of
> > (no Monarchs in it so its OK) and build the motel with a great view, and
> > and on.
> >
> > Sorry, if this is just about preserving a phenomenon for _our_
> > enviro-industry enjoyment I want nothing to do with it.   I'd rather
> > Brower talk about potential extinction - that would merit millions for
> > intervention.
> >
> > Ron Gatrelle
> >
> > PS  Evolved phenomenon (like flight or lack thereof) are transitory.  We
> > humans tend to want to keep only those that appeal to our romantic
> > prejudices.   An insect sucking nectar from a flower is great - plant
> > flowers.  An insect sucking blood from us is horrible - kill all the
> > mosquitoes.   HUmmmmm, well, this has to be.... I bet there is, or will
> > soon be, a mosquito abatement program at the Monarch overwintering site
> > tourist don't put up with nasty biting or stinging BUGS!!   If this was
> > such an important and delicate area, than it should have all the local
> > people moved out, no tourists allowed, and the entire region returned to
> > pristine wilderness sanctuary only accessable by scientists.  I mean you
> > can't walk on Old Faithful the last I checked.
> >
> > PPS   Don't anyone get on my case, as sarcasm and overstatement is good
> > self reflection - esp. to egotists.
> >
> > PPISSISS I did. What happened to Tampa Bay???  Go Colts!!!!
> >
> >
> >
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