Monarch Migration Predicted to be Extinct within 16 years

Charles Bordelon legitintellexit at
Tue Oct 7 19:58:47 EDT 2003

What's this "WE," stuff, white man?  I see a bunch of Monarch freaks spewing
rhetoric with a high-browed point of view that only Man can appreciate the
wonders and glories bestowed upon creation.  On just this planet.  How
narrow-minded and arrogant can the Human race become?  We plunder, we bitch.
If God likes it, that's good enough for me.  Having the audacity to assume
this was all made for us is ludicrous.  If you really care, shut up and do
something.  cb
----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Foley" <patfoley at>
To: "Ron Gatrelle" <gatrelle at>
Cc: <monarch at>; <leps-l at>
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: Monarch Migration Predicted to be Extinct within 16 years

> Ron,
> Human interest in nature extends beyond the material substances
> involved. I believe that you recognize this as much as anyone.
> If we kept all the DNA of every organism and removed their behaviors,
> cultures and strategies, the world would be a more empty place, whether
> or not humans were around to observe the phenomena that were gone.
> Patrick
> patfoley at
> Ron Gatrelle wrote:
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Patrick Foley" <patfoley at>
> > Subject: Re: Monarch Migration Predicted to be Extinct within 16 years
> >
> >
> >
> >>Did Brower blunder? Or did he warn? Is the habitat in Mexico secure now?
> >>Brower gets ten more years on his "blunder", based on the quote you
> >>link. And note, Brower is not claiming that Monarchs will be extinct in
> >>ten years, he is claiming that the Eastern migratory phenomenon is
> >>likely to be extinguished. I think Brower may be wrong, partly because
> >>he was right to push for the protection of the overwintering sites. But
> >>I also think that the migratory phenomenon is more fragile than you do.
> >>At some point of overwintering mortality in Mexico, the Eastern monarch
> >>population is going to be under strong selection to avoid it.
> >
> >
> > _IF_ pretty much everyone agrees that this is not a matter of potential
> > species extinction but preservation of a phenomenon (strategy actually),
> > then why is the _phenomenon_ so important? Humans are the only creature
> > earth that is aware of this phenomenon is and what it is about.
> >
> > Knowing this is really about a phenomenon (like Old Faithful) tells us
> > we now have a growing multimillion dollar tourist industry growing about
> > it.   Fly the thousands of Monarch Tourists (or shallow phenomenon
> > tourists?) on fossil fuel guzzling planes to Mexico full, build
> > throw in a few night spots, bars, build, pollute, destroy X patch of
> > (no Monarchs in it so its OK) and build the motel with a great view, and
> > and on.
> >
> > Sorry, if this is just about preserving a phenomenon for _our_
> > enviro-industry enjoyment I want nothing to do with it.   I'd rather
> > Brower talk about potential extinction - that would merit millions for
> > intervention.
> >
> > Ron Gatrelle
> >
> > PS  Evolved phenomenon (like flight or lack thereof) are transitory.  We
> > humans tend to want to keep only those that appeal to our romantic
> > prejudices.   An insect sucking nectar from a flower is great - plant
> > flowers.  An insect sucking blood from us is horrible - kill all the
> > mosquitoes.   HUmmmmm, well, this has to be.... I bet there is, or will
> > soon be, a mosquito abatement program at the Monarch overwintering site
> > tourist don't put up with nasty biting or stinging BUGS!!   If this was
> > such an important and delicate area, than it should have all the local
> > people moved out, no tourists allowed, and the entire region returned to
> > pristine wilderness sanctuary only accessable by scientists.  I mean you
> > can't walk on Old Faithful the last I checked.
> >
> > PPS   Don't anyone get on my case, as sarcasm and overstatement is good
> > self reflection - esp. to egotists.
> >
> > PPISSISS I did. What happened to Tampa Bay???  Go Colts!!!!
> >
> >
> >
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