[leps-talk] Re: Fwd: Interdiction of illegal loggers

[MexicoDoug at aol.com]

>Doug Dawn wrote:

>>Hi Neil, pretty sick that this problem is so overwhelming.

>Doug, if the amount of illegal logging going on was overwhelming from 
>a biological poi...

Paul Cherubini wrote:
>Same old story:
>1. The scope of the illegal 

Paul, "Same Old Story" indeed, again and again and again.  The oddest thing 
is that both of our initial responses this issue basically agree on the major 
issue that this was a small haul.  The fact that this same old story this time 
is a small haul wouldn't seem to be an argument that the Monarchs are going 
strong.  It would seem to me that an auditor or scientist finding that someone 
just stole a few quarters out of the cash register every time they checked 
makes a good argument that the controls are failing.

You could make some a valid point or two if you didn't seize every 
opportunity to force your thoughts:

The objection with your post is that your snippet of my response was crafted 
into the foundation of something I didn't suggest or even judge.  The 
"overwhelming" refers to the task of ENFORCING THE LAW vs. "UNCIVILITY AND 
LAWLESSNESS" we now are seeing, and has nothing to do with the "BIOLOGICAL" scale of 
damage issue you use my words to make.

As you have a different axe to grind let me make clear my perspective on your 
issue, so as not to be misinterpreted:

1.  Aerial photos certainly sound like a good idea but equally are certainly 
incomplete to evaluate current rates (rather than historical ones) of 
degradation.  If you want a reckoning of the past predictions, I don't think that is 
the first thing on the mind of a researcher trying to do something new.  You 
could always work on a rigorous publication covering it, though.  What type of 
coverage and where and at what cost can it be done to decisively and 
unambiguously evaluate the fitness (humidity, temperature buffering ability, appropriate 
level of wilderness, etc.) of the forests...I find it difficult to believe 
that a few pictures you take on the fly are conclusive, since you choose to take 
even my own points out of context in this very post to convince...

2.   This illegal activity quickly gets out of control like a cancer, if word 
gets out it is a way to turn a quick peso.  You need to recognize the 
importance of achieiving a stable situation rather than promoting a free for all or 
anarchy.  Because in one season you could lose it all.  Can you really believe 
the two little guys in that article are chosing what trees to cut down based 
on concern for the Monarchs as you state?  More likely they are only concerned 
with saving their own posteriors and stealing, and would haul The Pines (Los 
Pinos: A Mexican Presidential retreat) away if no one were looking.

3.  You include yourself in "the public", in your perception that most all 
the conservationists and environmentalists are in a sort of misinformation 
conspiracy.  Certainly if you are the public, so are they.  So no need polarizing 
or championing an Us vs. Them situation.  Their posting about all these 
thieves' activity is not misinformation.  Neither is projecting natural resources a 
misinformation campaign when based on reasonable science.

4.  What is "reasonable science" or good science is traditionally resolved in 
peer reviewed scientific journals.  For all the effort you make, the biggest 
question to me isn't "Why there are no conservationist polaroids of the 
forests", but rather "where's Paul's good science."  Send the public a reference, 
won't you?

5.  Once you suggested a potential solution in response to my post, to help 
improve the situation.  It was that Big US Lumber interests educate Mexico on 
how to manage Forests.  Perhaps that would be acceptable to have those 
interests manage Yosemite, etc., I'm not even condemning they would do a bad job.  In 
Mexico, the age of overt participation of big US industrial interests in 
natural resources has past.  Last time that happened, petroleum and mining, rail, 
etc. were basically lost to foreigners, and had to be seized back, leaving a 
very bitter aftermath, so maybe you can understand why that idea needs a little 
work before it can fly.

Saludos, Doug


En un mensaje con fecha 06/17/2004 3:16:07 PM Mexico Daylight Time, 
monarch at saber.net escribe:

> Doug Dawn wrote:
> 
> >Hi Neil, pretty sick that this problem is so overwhelming.
> 
> Doug, if the amount of illegal logging going on was overwhelming from 
> a biological point of view then the scientists and conservationists could 
> simply post the high resolution aerial photos they have of the monarch
> forests which have been taken from helicopters and airplanes since the 
> late 1960's.  What better way of showing the public the scope and impact
> of the illegal logging?
> 
> But for some reason the scientists and conservationists have never shown 
> these crucial photos to the public.  My  guess is they don't want the public 
> 
> to see the photos because then we could all see with our own eyes that
> there has been only a trivial amount of deforestation at the altitudes and 
> on the slopes of the mountains where the monarchs overwinter over the 
> past 35 years.
> 
> Paul Cherubini
> El Dorado, Calif.
> 
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