[leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club
Grkovich, Alex
agrkovich at tmpeng.com
Mon Mar 8 09:59:04 EST 2004
John,
I'm sure that the whole thing is not "garbage" or "non-sense" to the
unfortunate man now being prosecuted...and what about the fact that the man
might not have known about a "depredation permit"? And that leads into
another thing that's been bothering me...Why is it now the Citizens'
responsibility to find out the content about all sorts of obscure laws and
regulations that no one can even find on non-ending Websites that twke a
half-day to even begin to research into? I mean, again, what has happened to
the "...common welfare..."? This unfortunate man should be excused at once
by the prosecution...NOT subject to this demeaning action...Agreed? Do you
still say that I'm writing "non-sense"? Or maybe the Citizens of this Nation
don't count any longer? Maybe coyotes and hawks do...
And, what would you say if it was his toddler who had been attacked by the
bird in his backyard? What would you say THEN, John??? And I DID admit that
my facts might not be entirely correct...
Alex
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Shuey [SMTP:jshuey at tnc.org]
> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:48 AM
> To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu; TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> Cc: Grkovich, Alex
> Subject: RE: [leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club
>
> It's interesting the garbage people believe.
>
> First, while I'm not the most rabid supporter of the Sierra Club, its
> interesting to note that unlike most organizations, they have "true"
> elections of their leadership with multiple candidates nominated by real
> members - and this year's election is hotly contested and could well
> change the face of the organization. The bottom line is that here is an
> organization that seems to reflect their memberships desires - and if you
> don't like what's going on in the Sierra Club - then join and vote! I'm
> pretty sure that you can pick up some of the national news coverage of the
> election by simply searching the internet.
>
> Second - the tirade about the endangered species act and the "evidence"
> presented are just plain ignorant! Red Tailed Hawks - Federally
> Endangered ?? - not even remotely a chance. This is a classic bait and
> switch argument. It is against the law in the country to kill ANY
> migratory bird without a permit. This particular law has nothing to do
> with endangered species. But then - ignorant people seldom check the
> facts - so why not just merge the two things and re-enforce those
> preconceptions??
>
> Second - at least in the Midwest, you can easily get a depredation permit
> by asking a CO. So if a farmer has solid evidence that 1.5lb bird is
> killing his live stock (must be in the guinea pig farming business), then
> you can indeed get a permit to kill the said predator.
>
> Two of my favorite quotes combine nicely to sum up this type of argument.
> Agent Molder of X-Files fame used to say "I want to believe". Add in
> Indiana Congressman's Earl Landgrebe famous lines "Don't confuse me with
> the facts", and you have the grasping at non-sense in support of
> preconceptions that I read below.
>
> John
>
> ___________________
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:16 AM
> To: 'monarch at saber.net'; leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Cc: 'TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [leps-talk] RE: Fwd: Monarch saviors
>
>
> The Sierra Club is just another example of the "radical
> environmentalist"
> movement that threatens the freedom of citizens in this country. One
> wonders
> just WHO is secretly lurking behind such organizations, probably
> even
> unbeknown to many of the honest folks who lead these groups.
> Certainly
> conservation has to be at the forefront of the minds of all of us,
> and
> certainly IS there...But...the messages that are conveyed in their
> bulletins
> in which they advertise for new members (I just received one and it
> is now
> in the trash) are misleading and are plainly not truthful in all
> regards.
>
> For example, hearings are on-going in terms of revising the
> (dangerously
> flawed) Endangered Species Act...The message here in the
> advertisement is :
> "Save all of this threatened wildlife..." which is of course the
> goal of all
> of us...What is NOT conveyed is the other side of the coin...Here is
> an
> example:
>
> About two weeks ago I read in the Boston Globe an article (in
> Section 1)
> about a man is eastern Mass. who is currently (I believe that I do
> not
> understand this incorrectly, but I disavow any responsibility in
> this matter
> if I am in error...) being prosecuted for killing a Red Tailed Hawk
> (an
> "Endangered Species") which was threatening (killing) his
> livestock...Well,
> first, isn't the MAN'S interest and livelihood and FREEDOM on his
> own
> property, first and foremost (..."...for the Common Welfare..." as
> was
> written in the Declaration of Independence of our Republic) above
> that of an
> animal? And Red Tailed Hawks are now abundant in eastern
> Massachusetts, we
> have a colony of them in the conservation area behind our own
> property...I
> actually saw one near downtown Boston yesterday...So why on earth
> are they
> "Endangered"...
>
> We need to write to Congress (Representatives Pombo, Walden and
> Cardoza)
> about the shortcomings of this dangerously flawed Act.
>
> And no more money for the "Sierra Club"...
>
> Alex
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Cherubini [SMTP:monarch at saber.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 8:18 PM
> > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > Subject: Re: Fwd: Monarch saviors
> >
> > Richard Worth wrote:
> > >
> > > FYI. Some good news
> > > Butterfly Bodyguards
> > > illegal logging has put the monarch's survival at risk.
> > > To its rescue has come a Mexican butterfly patrol, including
> > > 500 police as well as environmental inspectors and helicopters.
> > > So far, the effort has netted 28 illegal loggers and nearly
> 5,000
> > > cubic yards of ill-gotten wood.
> >
> > This Sierra Magazine article failed to inform the reader that
> > the harvested trees in this case were growing way below the
> > altitude where the monarchs cluster. Therefore the "5,000
> > cubic yards of ill-gotten wood" did not actually represent any
> monarch
> > cluster habitat that was lost. It follows that even if more of
> this
> > "illegal" type harvesting should occur in the future, it will not
> pose a
> > threat to the monarch. Thus the butterfly patrol people aren't
> really
> > "rescuing" the monarch.
> >
> > You see a few years ago, American monarch biologists arbitrarily
> > enlarged the Monarch Reserve boundaries way beyond and below
> > the altitude where the monarchs cluster. Understandably, some of
>
> > the local people are angry about being deprived of access to
> > large areas of forest which the butterflies don't actually need or
>
> > use.
> >
> > Here is another actual case history of some illegal (apparently)
> > logging within the Chincua Monarch Reserve a few years ago
> > and my explanation as to why is it does not pose a threat to the
> > monarch: <http://www.saber.net/~monarch/chincualog.jpg>
> >
> > Paul Cherubini
> > El Dorado, Calif.
> >
> >
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