[leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club
jmmaes at ibw.com.ni
Mon Mar 8 11:02:47 EST 2004
Sorry for sending two e-mails in so short time. I read this one after the
A good solution in the case of a person abused by autorities. Legally
abused, as doing something wrong, but not guilty as the person didn't know,
or in the case of not really relevant facts.
If you kill a special kind of moth, it's not very important, in comparison
of the quantity of the same moth attracted by the lights of the cars and
A good solution could be using the Natural History Societies. If a petition
done by friends and collegues, saying, this person is not guilty, that will
probably have an influence on the judge.
The idea is given the justice a tool who can separate the casual collectors
from professional collectors. The professional collectors have a paper
(permit) to collect. Casual collectors, generally, does not have it. The
best is get a permit. The other thing is make societies.
I remember another example in Belgium, with the bird proyection law. It was
a fight between the government and the hunters societies. The unters said
that it's an ancestral (folklor) right of the people to hunt animals, and
the governement put some experts to study the case. I do not know how the
story finished but it was an horrible story, as in the hunters group there
was some good and some bad people. How to separate them ?
So, I imagine that a petition of a Natural History Society could be a good
In Nicaragua we have a Theraphosidae (a big hairy spider) on the CITES list.
Be shure any person who see one inside the house kill it. It's for local
people a self-defense reflex. (Note that the spider is totally harmless). If
someone can proof you smashed a Theraphosidae you can be send to the judge.
So perhaps your lawyer can argue : self-defense. Same if you shoot a bandit
inside your home. In this case it is not folklor is defense.
Dr. Jean-Michel MAES
AP 527 (Do not use DHL or similar !)
jmmaes at ibw.com.ni
afleon at ibw.com.ni (solo para emergencia, si jmmaes no responde)
http://www.ibw.com.ni/~jmmaes (pequeña pagina de contacto)
http://www.coleoptera.org/p1760.htm (Lucanidae genera)
----- Original Message -----
From: Grkovich, Alex <agrkovich at tmpeng.com>
To: <jshuey at tnc.org>; <leps-l at lists.yale.edu>;
<TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
Cc: Grkovich, Alex <agrkovich at tmpeng.com>
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 7:59 AM
Subject: RE: [leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club
> I'm sure that the whole thing is not "garbage" or "non-sense" to the
> unfortunate man now being prosecuted...and what about the fact that the
> might not have known about a "depredation permit"? And that leads into
> another thing that's been bothering me...Why is it now the Citizens'
> responsibility to find out the content about all sorts of obscure laws and
> regulations that no one can even find on non-ending Websites that twke a
> half-day to even begin to research into? I mean, again, what has happened
> the "...common welfare..."? This unfortunate man should be excused at once
> by the prosecution...NOT subject to this demeaning action...Agreed? Do you
> still say that I'm writing "non-sense"? Or maybe the Citizens of this
> don't count any longer? Maybe coyotes and hawks do...
> And, what would you say if it was his toddler who had been attacked by the
> bird in his backyard? What would you say THEN, John??? And I DID admit
> my facts might not be entirely correct...
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Shuey [SMTP:jshuey at tnc.org]
> > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:48 AM
> > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu; TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> > Cc: Grkovich, Alex
> > Subject: RE: [leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club
> > It's interesting the garbage people believe.
> > First, while I'm not the most rabid supporter of the Sierra Club, its
> > interesting to note that unlike most organizations, they have "true"
> > elections of their leadership with multiple candidates nominated by
> > members - and this year's election is hotly contested and could well
> > change the face of the organization. The bottom line is that here is
> > organization that seems to reflect their memberships desires - and if
> > don't like what's going on in the Sierra Club - then join and vote!
> > pretty sure that you can pick up some of the national news coverage of
> > election by simply searching the internet.
> > Second - the tirade about the endangered species act and the "evidence"
> > presented are just plain ignorant! Red Tailed Hawks - Federally
> > Endangered ?? - not even remotely a chance. This is a classic bait
> > switch argument. It is against the law in the country to kill ANY
> > migratory bird without a permit. This particular law has nothing to do
> > with endangered species. But then - ignorant people seldom check the
> > facts - so why not just merge the two things and re-enforce those
> > preconceptions??
> > Second - at least in the Midwest, you can easily get a depredation
> > by asking a CO. So if a farmer has solid evidence that 1.5lb bird is
> > killing his live stock (must be in the guinea pig farming business),
> > you can indeed get a permit to kill the said predator.
> > Two of my favorite quotes combine nicely to sum up this type of
> > Agent Molder of X-Files fame used to say "I want to believe". Add in
> > Indiana Congressman's Earl Landgrebe famous lines "Don't confuse me with
> > the facts", and you have the grasping at non-sense in support of
> > preconceptions that I read below.
> > John
> > ___________________
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:16 AM
> > To: 'monarch at saber.net'; leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > Cc: 'TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com'
> > Subject: [leps-talk] RE: Fwd: Monarch saviors
> > The Sierra Club is just another example of the "radical
> > environmentalist"
> > movement that threatens the freedom of citizens in this country. One
> > wonders
> > just WHO is secretly lurking behind such organizations, probably
> > even
> > unbeknown to many of the honest folks who lead these groups.
> > Certainly
> > conservation has to be at the forefront of the minds of all of us,
> > and
> > certainly IS there...But...the messages that are conveyed in their
> > bulletins
> > in which they advertise for new members (I just received one and it
> > is now
> > in the trash) are misleading and are plainly not truthful in all
> > regards.
> > For example, hearings are on-going in terms of revising the
> > (dangerously
> > flawed) Endangered Species Act...The message here in the
> > advertisement is :
> > "Save all of this threatened wildlife..." which is of course the
> > goal of all
> > of us...What is NOT conveyed is the other side of the coin...Here is
> > an
> > example:
> > About two weeks ago I read in the Boston Globe an article (in
> > Section 1)
> > about a man is eastern Mass. who is currently (I believe that I do
> > not
> > understand this incorrectly, but I disavow any responsibility in
> > this matter
> > if I am in error...) being prosecuted for killing a Red Tailed Hawk
> > (an
> > "Endangered Species") which was threatening (killing) his
> > livestock...Well,
> > first, isn't the MAN'S interest and livelihood and FREEDOM on his
> > own
> > property, first and foremost (..."...for the Common Welfare..." as
> > was
> > written in the Declaration of Independence of our Republic) above
> > that of an
> > animal? And Red Tailed Hawks are now abundant in eastern
> > Massachusetts, we
> > have a colony of them in the conservation area behind our own
> > property...I
> > actually saw one near downtown Boston yesterday...So why on earth
> > are they
> > "Endangered"...
> > We need to write to Congress (Representatives Pombo, Walden and
> > Cardoza)
> > about the shortcomings of this dangerously flawed Act.
> > And no more money for the "Sierra Club"...
> > Alex
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Paul Cherubini [SMTP:monarch at saber.net]
> > > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 8:18 PM
> > > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > > Subject: Re: Fwd: Monarch saviors
> > >
> > > Richard Worth wrote:
> > > >
> > > > FYI. Some good news
> > > > Butterfly Bodyguards
> > > > illegal logging has put the monarch's survival at risk.
> > > > To its rescue has come a Mexican butterfly patrol, including
> > > > 500 police as well as environmental inspectors and helicopters.
> > > > So far, the effort has netted 28 illegal loggers and nearly
> > 5,000
> > > > cubic yards of ill-gotten wood.
> > >
> > > This Sierra Magazine article failed to inform the reader that
> > > the harvested trees in this case were growing way below the
> > > altitude where the monarchs cluster. Therefore the "5,000
> > > cubic yards of ill-gotten wood" did not actually represent any
> > monarch
> > > cluster habitat that was lost. It follows that even if more of
> > this
> > > "illegal" type harvesting should occur in the future, it will not
> > pose a
> > > threat to the monarch. Thus the butterfly patrol people aren't
> > really
> > > "rescuing" the monarch.
> > >
> > > You see a few years ago, American monarch biologists arbitrarily
> > > enlarged the Monarch Reserve boundaries way beyond and below
> > > the altitude where the monarchs cluster. Understandably, some of
> > > the local people are angry about being deprived of access to
> > > large areas of forest which the butterflies don't actually need or
> > > use.
> > >
> > > Here is another actual case history of some illegal (apparently)
> > > logging within the Chincua Monarch Reserve a few years ago
> > > and my explanation as to why is it does not pose a threat to the
> > > monarch: <http://www.saber.net/~monarch/chincualog.jpg>
> > >
> > > Paul Cherubini
> > > El Dorado, Calif.
> > >
> > >
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