[leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club
Grkovich, Alex
agrkovich at tmpeng.com
Mon Mar 8 10:21:01 EST 2004
...Let me just re-iterate my problem with this "event"...
A man is being prosecuted for killing a predatory bird who was attacking his
livestock on the man's own property...and faces fines (if not a jail
sentence...I'm not sure of this latter penalty...)...
Another Lepidopterist wrote awhile back that he found a road-killed Schaus'
Swallowtail on Key Largo a few years ago, and pointed out that he could be
jailed for picking it up...
I hope everyone reading this understands that there's something deeply wrong
with many of our Laws...and that many of these Laws need (apparently) to be
"fixed"...We were doing quite well-enough in this country without these
misguided and radical "Laws"...
As I said, this man (and his family) here in eastern Mass. is being publicly
humiliated in the "mass media"...and THAT'S wrong...and dangerous...
Alex
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grkovich, Alex
> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:59 AM
> To: 'jshuey at tnc.org'; leps-l at lists.yale.edu;
> TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> Cc: Grkovich, Alex
> Subject: RE: [leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club
>
> John,
>
> I'm sure that the whole thing is not "garbage" or "non-sense" to the
> unfortunate man now being prosecuted...and what about the fact that the
> man might not have known about a "depredation permit"? And that leads into
> another thing that's been bothering me...Why is it now the Citizens'
> responsibility to find out the content about all sorts of obscure laws and
> regulations that no one can even find on non-ending Websites that twke a
> half-day to even begin to research into? I mean, again, what has happened
> to the "...common welfare..."? This unfortunate man should be excused at
> once by the prosecution...NOT subject to this demeaning action...Agreed?
> Do you still say that I'm writing "non-sense"? Or maybe the Citizens of
> this Nation don't count any longer? Maybe coyotes and hawks do...
>
> And, what would you say if it was his toddler who had been attacked by the
> bird in his backyard? What would you say THEN, John??? And I DID admit
> that my facts might not be entirely correct...
>
> Alex
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Shuey [SMTP:jshuey at tnc.org]
> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:48 AM
> To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu; TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> Cc: Grkovich, Alex
> Subject: RE: [leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra
> Club
>
> It's interesting the garbage people believe.
>
> First, while I'm not the most rabid supporter of the Sierra Club,
> its interesting to note that unlike most organizations, they have "true"
> elections of their leadership with multiple candidates nominated by real
> members - and this year's election is hotly contested and could well
> change the face of the organization. The bottom line is that here is an
> organization that seems to reflect their memberships desires - and if you
> don't like what's going on in the Sierra Club - then join and vote! I'm
> pretty sure that you can pick up some of the national news coverage of the
> election by simply searching the internet.
>
> Second - the tirade about the endangered species act and the
> "evidence" presented are just plain ignorant! Red Tailed Hawks -
> Federally Endangered ?? - not even remotely a chance. This is a classic
> bait and switch argument. It is against the law in the country to kill
> ANY migratory bird without a permit. This particular law has nothing to
> do with endangered species. But then - ignorant people seldom check the
> facts - so why not just merge the two things and re-enforce those
> preconceptions??
>
> Second - at least in the Midwest, you can easily get a depredation
> permit by asking a CO. So if a farmer has solid evidence that 1.5lb bird
> is killing his live stock (must be in the guinea pig farming business),
> then you can indeed get a permit to kill the said predator.
>
> Two of my favorite quotes combine nicely to sum up this type of
> argument. Agent Molder of X-Files fame used to say "I want to believe".
> Add in Indiana Congressman's Earl Landgrebe famous lines "Don't confuse me
> with the facts", and you have the grasping at non-sense in support of
> preconceptions that I read below.
>
> John
>
> ___________________
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:16 AM
> To: 'monarch at saber.net'; leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Cc: 'TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com'
> Subject: [leps-talk] RE: Fwd: Monarch saviors
>
>
> The Sierra Club is just another example of the "radical
> environmentalist"
> movement that threatens the freedom of citizens in this
> country. One wonders
> just WHO is secretly lurking behind such organizations,
> probably even
> unbeknown to many of the honest folks who lead these groups.
> Certainly
> conservation has to be at the forefront of the minds of all
> of us, and
> certainly IS there...But...the messages that are conveyed in
> their bulletins
> in which they advertise for new members (I just received one
> and it is now
> in the trash) are misleading and are plainly not truthful in
> all regards.
>
> For example, hearings are on-going in terms of revising the
> (dangerously
> flawed) Endangered Species Act...The message here in the
> advertisement is :
> "Save all of this threatened wildlife..." which is of course
> the goal of all
> of us...What is NOT conveyed is the other side of the
> coin...Here is an
> example:
>
> About two weeks ago I read in the Boston Globe an article
> (in Section 1)
> about a man is eastern Mass. who is currently (I believe
> that I do not
> understand this incorrectly, but I disavow any
> responsibility in this matter
> if I am in error...) being prosecuted for killing a Red
> Tailed Hawk (an
> "Endangered Species") which was threatening (killing) his
> livestock...Well,
> first, isn't the MAN'S interest and livelihood and FREEDOM
> on his own
> property, first and foremost (..."...for the Common
> Welfare..." as was
> written in the Declaration of Independence of our Republic)
> above that of an
> animal? And Red Tailed Hawks are now abundant in eastern
> Massachusetts, we
> have a colony of them in the conservation area behind our
> own property...I
> actually saw one near downtown Boston yesterday...So why on
> earth are they
> "Endangered"...
>
> We need to write to Congress (Representatives Pombo, Walden
> and Cardoza)
> about the shortcomings of this dangerously flawed Act.
>
> And no more money for the "Sierra Club"...
>
> Alex
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Paul Cherubini [SMTP:monarch at saber.net]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2004 8:18 PM
> > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > Subject: Re: Fwd: Monarch saviors
> >
> > Richard Worth wrote:
> > >
> > > FYI. Some good news
> > > Butterfly Bodyguards
> > > illegal logging has put the monarch's survival at risk.
> > > To its rescue has come a Mexican butterfly patrol,
> including
> > > 500 police as well as environmental inspectors and
> helicopters.
> > > So far, the effort has netted 28 illegal loggers and
> nearly 5,000
> > > cubic yards of ill-gotten wood.
> >
> > This Sierra Magazine article failed to inform the reader
> that
> > the harvested trees in this case were growing way below
> the
> > altitude where the monarchs cluster. Therefore the "5,000
> > cubic yards of ill-gotten wood" did not actually represent
> any monarch
> > cluster habitat that was lost. It follows that even if
> more of this
> > "illegal" type harvesting should occur in the future, it
> will not pose a
> > threat to the monarch. Thus the butterfly patrol people
> aren't really
> > "rescuing" the monarch.
> >
> > You see a few years ago, American monarch biologists
> arbitrarily
> > enlarged the Monarch Reserve boundaries way beyond and
> below
> > the altitude where the monarchs cluster. Understandably,
> some of
> > the local people are angry about being deprived of access
> to
> > large areas of forest which the butterflies don't actually
> need or
> > use.
> >
> > Here is another actual case history of some illegal
> (apparently)
> > logging within the Chincua Monarch Reserve a few years ago
> > and my explanation as to why is it does not pose a threat
> to the
> > monarch: <http://www.saber.net/~monarch/chincualog.jpg>
> >
> > Paul Cherubini
> > El Dorado, Calif.
> >
> >
> >
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