[leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club

Jean-Michel MAES jmmaes at ibw.com.ni
Mon Mar 8 10:50:24 EST 2004


Dear friends,

That's the problem of most of the laws made by humans. A law is an agreement
take by the all society.

In the case of CITES. Some experts, in representation of the Society,
prepare a list of species they consider endangered and propose to put those
species in a protection list.

I always remember the first list in Belgium, 25 or 30 years ago, there was
"Carabus spp." in it.

OK. Now, the problem is the application of the law.

What for was the law ? The law was a tool to block the collectors of those
species of Crabus.

First problem : Farmers who sprays insecticides on a field where are Carabus
are legally guilty and if you can proove it you can send them to jail. If
they do not spray and they have pests, there is another law that oblige them
to control the pests. If they do not control, the pests will increase and be
a problem for other farmers (another law or agreement). So if they do not
control pests they are also guilty. Hard law which said if doing : guilty;
if not doing : guilty.

Second problem : there must be cases where the law doesn't apply ? Like the
farmers. Also like the guy who find a Carbus sp. on the road, crashed by a
car (note theat the driver is also guilty but not known). But... ???
If you found 5 Carabus on the road ? Is it fair. I have found up to nearly
200 Geotrupes on the roadside, making a long hike in Bretagne (France). How
can you proof that those Carabus were really smashed by cars ? You can
declare, during two or 3 months we have collected on the roadside 6,870
Carabus smashed by car... Why not. Can you proof it's not true ? So the law
stay on "you can not transport it" so not able to pick it from the road.
Sorry, sound stupid but law is law. Now, if you want, you stop a cop, said :
"you see this Carabus is on the road" sign a paper and with this you can go
to the CITES office to legalize it. I guess they will legalize the specimen.

DURA LEX    SED LEX.

Bye,

Jean-Michel.




Dr. Jean-Michel MAES
MUSEO ENTOMOLOGICO
AP 527 (Do not use DHL or similar !)
LEON
NICARAGUA
tel 505-3116586
FAX 505-3110126
jmmaes at ibw.com.ni
afleon at ibw.com.ni (solo para emergencia, si jmmaes no responde)

http://www.ibw.com.ni/~jmmaes (pequeña pagina de contacto)
www.avesnicaragua.org (aves)
http://www.insectariumvirtual.com/termitero/nicaragua/welcome.htm (Home
page)
www.museum.unl.edu/research/entomology/database2/honduintro.htm
(Scarabaeidae)
www.windsofkansas.com/nicaragua.html (Odonata)
www.geocities.com/krislinde/pdf/JMMAES.pdf (bibliografia)
www.estasemanatv.com/05012003/04.asx (mariposas)
http://www.coleoptera.org/p1760.htm (Lucanidae genera)
----- Original Message -----
From: Grkovich, Alex <agrkovich at tmpeng.com>
To: Grkovich, Alex <agrkovich at tmpeng.com>; <jshuey at tnc.org>;
<leps-l at lists.yale.edu>; <TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 8:21 AM
Subject: RE: [leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club


> ...Let me just re-iterate my problem with this "event"...
>
> A man is being prosecuted for killing a predatory bird who was attacking
his
> livestock on the man's own property...and faces fines (if not a jail
> sentence...I'm not sure of this latter penalty...)...
>
> Another Lepidopterist wrote awhile back that he found a road-killed
Schaus'
> Swallowtail on Key Largo a few years ago, and pointed out that he could be
> jailed for picking it up...
>
> I hope everyone reading this understands that there's something deeply
wrong
> with many of our Laws...and that many of these Laws need (apparently) to
be
> "fixed"...We were doing quite well-enough in this country without these
> misguided and radical "Laws"...
>
> As I said, this man (and his family) here in eastern Mass. is being
publicly
> humiliated in the "mass media"...and THAT'S wrong...and dangerous...
>
> Alex
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Grkovich, Alex
> > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:59 AM
> > To: 'jshuey at tnc.org'; leps-l at lists.yale.edu;
> > TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> > Cc: Grkovich, Alex
> > Subject: RE: [leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra Club
> >
> > John,
> >
> > I'm sure that the whole thing is not "garbage" or "non-sense" to the
> > unfortunate man now being prosecuted...and what about the fact that the
> > man might not have known about a "depredation permit"? And that leads
into
> > another thing that's been bothering me...Why is it now the Citizens'
> > responsibility to find out the content about all sorts of obscure laws
and
> > regulations that no one can even find on non-ending Websites that twke a
> > half-day to even begin to research into? I mean, again, what has
happened
> > to the "...common welfare..."? This unfortunate man should be excused at
> > once by the prosecution...NOT subject to this demeaning action...Agreed?
> > Do you still say that I'm writing "non-sense"? Or maybe the Citizens of
> > this Nation don't count any longer? Maybe coyotes and hawks do...
> >
> > And, what would you say if it was his toddler who had been attacked by
the
> > bird in his backyard? What would you say THEN, John??? And I DID admit
> > that my facts might not be entirely correct...
> >
> > Alex
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: John Shuey [SMTP:jshuey at tnc.org]
> > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:48 AM
> > To: leps-l at lists.yale.edu; TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com
> > Cc: Grkovich, Alex
> > Subject: RE: [leps-talk] RE: Endangered Species Act & Sierra
> > Club
> >
> > It's interesting the garbage people believe.
> >
> > First, while I'm not the most rabid supporter of the Sierra Club,
> > its interesting to note that unlike most organizations, they have "true"
> > elections of their leadership with multiple candidates nominated by real
> > members - and this year's election is hotly contested and could well
> > change the face of the organization.  The bottom line is that here is an
> > organization that seems to reflect their memberships desires - and if
you
> > don't like what's going on in the Sierra Club - then join and vote!  I'm
> > pretty sure that you can pick up some of the national news coverage of
the
> > election by simply searching the internet.
> >
> > Second - the tirade about the endangered species act and the
> > "evidence" presented are just plain ignorant!  Red Tailed Hawks -
> > Federally Endangered ??  - not even remotely a chance.  This is a
classic
> > bait and switch argument.  It is against the law in the country to kill
> > ANY migratory bird without a permit.  This particular law has nothing to
> > do with endangered species.  But then - ignorant people seldom check the
> > facts - so why not just merge the two things and re-enforce those
> > preconceptions??
> >
> > Second - at least in the Midwest, you can easily get a depredation
> > permit by asking a CO.  So if a farmer has solid evidence that 1.5lb
bird
> > is killing his live stock (must be in the guinea pig farming business),
> > then you can indeed get a permit to kill the said predator.
> >
> > Two of my favorite quotes combine nicely to sum up this type of
> > argument.  Agent Molder of X-Files fame used to say "I want to believe".
> > Add in Indiana Congressman's Earl Landgrebe famous lines "Don't confuse
me
> > with the facts", and you have the grasping at non-sense in support of
> > preconceptions that I read below.
> >
> > John
> >
> > ___________________
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Grkovich, Alex [mailto:agrkovich at tmpeng.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 9:16 AM
> > To: 'monarch at saber.net'; leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > Cc: 'TILS-leps-talk at yahoogroups.com'
> > Subject: [leps-talk] RE: Fwd: Monarch saviors
> >
> >
> > The Sierra Club is just another example of the "radical
> > environmentalist"
> > movement that threatens the freedom of citizens in this
> > country. One wonders
> > just WHO is secretly lurking behind such organizations,
> > probably even
> > unbeknown to many of the honest folks who lead these groups.
> > Certainly
> > conservation has to be at the forefront of the minds of all
> > of us, and
> > certainly IS there...But...the messages that are conveyed in
> > their bulletins
> > in which they advertise for new members (I just received one
> > and it is now
> > in the trash) are misleading and are plainly not truthful in
> > all regards.
> >
> > For example, hearings are on-going in terms of revising the
> > (dangerously
> > flawed) Endangered Species Act...The message here in the
> > advertisement is :
> > "Save all of this threatened wildlife..." which is of course
> > the goal of all
> > of us...What is NOT conveyed is the other side of the
> > coin...Here is an
> > example:
> >
> > About two weeks ago I read in the Boston Globe an article
> > (in Section 1)
> > about a man is eastern Mass. who is currently (I believe
> > that I do not
> > understand this incorrectly, but I disavow any
> > responsibility in this matter
> > if I am in error...) being prosecuted for killing a Red
> > Tailed Hawk (an
> > "Endangered Species") which was threatening (killing) his
> > livestock...Well,
> > first, isn't the MAN'S interest and livelihood and FREEDOM
> > on his own
> > property, first and foremost (..."...for the Common
> > Welfare..." as was
> > written in the Declaration of Independence of our Republic)
> > above that of an
> > animal? And Red Tailed Hawks are now abundant in eastern
> > Massachusetts, we
> > have a colony of them in the conservation area behind our
> > own property...I
> > actually saw one near downtown Boston yesterday...So why on
> > earth are they
> > "Endangered"...
> >
> > We need to write to Congress (Representatives Pombo, Walden
> > and Cardoza)
> > about the shortcomings of this dangerously flawed Act.
> >
> > And no more money for the "Sierra Club"...
> >
> > Alex
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:      Paul Cherubini [SMTP:monarch at saber.net]
> > > Sent:      Sunday, March 07, 2004 8:18 PM
> > > To:      leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> > > Subject:      Re: Fwd: Monarch saviors
> > >
> > > Richard Worth wrote:
> > > >
> > > > FYI.  Some good news
> > > > Butterfly Bodyguards
> > > > illegal logging has put the monarch's survival at risk.
> > > > To its rescue has come a Mexican butterfly patrol,
> > including
> > > > 500 police as well as environmental inspectors and
> > helicopters.
> > > > So far, the effort has netted 28 illegal loggers and
> > nearly 5,000
> > > > cubic yards of ill-gotten wood.
> > >
> > > This Sierra Magazine article failed to inform the reader
> > that
> > > the harvested trees in this case were growing way below
> > the
> > > altitude where the monarchs cluster.  Therefore the "5,000
> > > cubic yards of ill-gotten wood" did not actually represent
> > any monarch
> > > cluster habitat that was lost.  It follows that even if
> > more of this
> > > "illegal" type harvesting should occur in the future, it
> > will not pose a
> > > threat to the monarch. Thus the butterfly patrol people
> > aren't really
> > > "rescuing" the monarch.
> > >
> > > You see a few years ago, American monarch biologists
> > arbitrarily
> > > enlarged the Monarch Reserve boundaries way beyond and
> > below
> > > the altitude where the monarchs cluster.  Understandably,
> > some of
> > > the local people are angry about being deprived of access
> > to
> > > large areas of forest which the butterflies don't actually
> > need or
> > > use.
> > >
> > > Here is another actual case history of some illegal
> > (apparently)
> > > logging within the Chincua Monarch Reserve a few years ago
> > > and my explanation as to why is it does not pose a threat
> > to the
> > > monarch: <http://www.saber.net/~monarch/chincualog.jpg>
> > >
> > > Paul Cherubini
> > > El Dorado, Calif.
> > >
> > >
> > >
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