[leps-talk] RE: Fwd: Monarch saviors

Grkovich, Alex agrkovich at tmpeng.com
Wed Mar 10 10:03:03 EST 2004

Well, I was going to just ignore this post from Jonathan (I answered him
off-line) as I myself am sick of this thread and also sick of certain
perhaps baseless remarks that I myself have regrettably made in it, but...

Jonathan, perhaps unknowingly, makes a couple of statements which to me
appear to be in keeping with that of which Ayn Rand wrote...

For example, Jonathan states that "virgin" places should be kept with "very
limited access"...in other words, man should be kept out of the forests,
away from "nature" (so that "nature", presumably should be "saved" from
man?)...But for what does "nature" exist, for what was it created? Or for
what specifically has Man been created? Man was created to be the Steward,
the Caretaker of nature, he was called to KNOW it, to study it, even to
enter into Communion with it...They were created actually, for each
other...Now, of course, Man was NOT created to destroy nature ( and I
emphasize that I DO NOT want to see it destroyed...what a terrible life it
would be without it), and in part having so done, he is in fact also in part
rejecting that high calling...I hope that Jonathan is NOT saying that man
must be consigned, perhaps as "sub-humans" to the cities, because it seems
to me that this is precisely part of the problem...People are losing contact
with, the knowledge of, and the intimacy with, nature...People are more and
more being herded into, consigned to the (ugly) cities, where youth see
little more day after day than concrete, ugly buildings, and everything else
that goes along with this drudgery...Man was NOT called to a "sub-human"
life of city drudgery; he has a higher calling in which he is to KNOW the
Creation, and to UNDERSTAND it (as it was written, "...you shall name

And...of course, if man is to study nature, well, then of course he has to
continue to collect specimens for scientific study, doesn't he? Has the
taxonomic study of Lepidoptera in recent years declined, or expanded? I
would definitely say the latter...It seems to me that we are in fact at the
present time only SCRATCHING at the taxonomic study of our Butterflies and
Skippers, and even less than that on our Moths...

And...as far as "collectors" causing butterfly extinctions are concerned, we
all know that numerous studies have been made by scientists including Paul
Opler, Paul Ehrlich etc. in which experiments were made, where deliberate
attempts to wipe out a butterfly colony by overcollecting in the colony
proved impossible...The idea of "collectors" causing extinctions of
butterfly species/subspecies has never been documented anywhere and must be
considered as a total myth...And the truth of the extinction of Mitchell's
Satyr in NJ is now becoming widely known..."Collectors" did not cause the
butterfly to disappear in NJ as "someone" wrote (and it probably still
exists there unknown to us)...it was loss of habitat resulting from
excessive development, and in at least one case, a colony was destroyed by
overgrowth of sedges caused by the cessation of mowing of the vegetation
where the colony existed (under a power line - and there is another rumored
cause of this extinction)...As it has been pointed out, "collectors" have
collected for decades in Michigan's Mitchell's colonies, without the loss of
a single colony, and I also hear that more colonies have been discovered in
Michigan, as well as in several other states (so just WHY is the species
"endangered"???)...But a freeway is NOW being planned in Michigan that would
extend RIGHT THROUGH a major colony...

I also have the text of an interesting editorial by Dr. James A. Scott,
which deals with a number of these very sensitive topics...I will forward it
off-line according to request...


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jonathan Sylvestre [SMTP:josylvestre at sympatico.ca]
> Sent:	Wednesday, March 10, 2004 7:59 AM
> To:	leps-l at lists.yale.edu
> Subject:	Re: [leps-talk] RE: Fwd: Monarch saviors
> "Grkovich, Alex" <agrkovich at tmpeng.com> a écrit dans le message de
> news:D10E57119AA2D511A61800902773FBE5C8B3BF at NTFS2...
> "why is there so much pressure from groups like the Sierra Club to deny
> people access to forests?
> Why in Yosemite Valle, for example, do pamphlets state that "butterfly
> collecting" is "ILLEGAL"? Who's behind this? You know, I agree with
> President Bush on selective logging...selective loggings and fire
> management
> are despeately needed...don't "orgs" such as the one we've been discussing
> know this? Why would I be denied access to and colleting of butterflies in
> a
> National Forest?  "
> Its the same everywhere... the problem is not can we collect butterflies
> or
> not ? or can we go in the forests ?  The problem is how many people can
> collect butterflies before making all species endangered or extinct ? And
> How many people can have access to the forest before making it like a
> ctity
> park on cutted grass with undred of trails everywhere etc...
> I think that we must keep "virgin" place with a very limited access...
> its
> the price to pay for overpopulation, if we want to keep the biodiversity
> Jonathan
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