was:Monarchs now humanity

Patrick Foley patfoley at csus.edu
Sat Apr 9 17:57:10 EDT 2005


I acknowledge your straightforward Christian analysis, very similar to 
what the Jesuits taught me (despite their reputation as theologically 
peculiar among many evangelicals).

But, perhaps because you are not a secular humanist, a primitive 
animist, a Buddhist or a Taoist, you overstate the case for the 
separation of the natural and spiritual human. I certainly don't want to 
argue with you about your religion. I simply want people to know that 
there are very different perspectives in the very large human religious 
community. I am especially amused by the notion that evolutionary 
biologists are at a loss to find "evil" in the world. Any social 
creature (and quite a few of them are untutored in the Bible) has a very 
clear sense of what "wrong" is. Haven't you every seen asn ashamed dog, 
or a furious infant?


Ron Gatrelle wrote:

>For the sake of the original and still leps-l continuing thread, and also
>to be polite to those who don't want to read stuff like the following, I
>have changed the name due to the direct it is taking.  Also do not cc or
>forward this to another group as that sort of thing is rude as it dumps
>others into the middle of something they have no point of reference to.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <jppelham at cs.com>
>Subject: RE: [leps-talk] Re: Re:Parasites and Monarchs
>>The words "inhuman" and “inhumane” direct us to the notion that we
>usually do not consider other creatures capable of inhumane behavior.  It
>is only the human animal that is inhumane.  It is “natural” for us to rape,
>pillage and plunder not only the natural world, but each other.
>I am one of those (moderately) against zoos because animals in such
>conditions develop (or loose) _their natural_ patterns of behavior.   Thus,
>they do things that are "un-natural", even to each other.  Our use of the
>term "unnatural" relative to other animals is the equivalent to our use of
>inhuman for ourselves.  All I have to do is coin the word inseal and have
>it catch on for it to be in Webster's in 20 years. But then we would have
>to coin such a word for every living thing on earth.  So instead we at
>times even use the term "inhumane" in application to vicious disfunctional
>animal behaviour.   So your use of words like that has little argumentative
>Secondly, rape, pillage and plunder are precisely _natural_.  Totally 100%.
>You are talking to a preacher, and I know you had enough Sunday School to
>know what the bible says about the Carnal and Natural Man as opposed to the
>Spiritual Man.  All of the "wrong" things we do as a species are dirrectly
>out of the fact that we are a dichodomy - a nautral man and a spriitual
>man.   If the spiritual man (that each of us is) allows the nautral man
>(that each of us is) to dominate our existance we will behave "wrongly".
>To correct this, it takes the element of submitting ourselves to God's
>Spirit - can't do it by ourselves (humanism).  Rape is something almost all
>male animals do - we are the only ones to have made it a "crime".
>Homosexuality used to be "against the law" too but is now widely embrased
>as simply genetic.  Same for alcholism.   Rapests have looonnnng stated
>that it is not their "fault" it is in their genes.    Neil has stated the
>bent to religiosity is in our genes - I can't help it.  The greatist proof
>of Jehovah God and Creation is all of us.   The one very unique thing He
>made.  Test the theory.  Is what He claimed to have created existant?  In
>abundance.  Does it behave exactly as He stated - uniquely different from
>all other animals?  Patently obvious - except to the unwise: Romans
>The flaw in this whole thread is that each person is speaking of humanity
>out of their own religious view of mankind -  because from the pure
>Evolutional construct, it is impossible for Homo sapiens to be "evil" and
>without that there can be no "crimes" against nature.  With only nature as
>our progenitor, everything we do is completely a natural part of the human
>species.  Many are like an HIV virus that wakes up one day and decides that
>its kind is (correctly so) a disgusting and harmful thing, but, then denies
>that this is exactly what makes it what it is.  It is its natural state of
>being.   Odd, how it is the bible (not science) that has us IDed
>correctly - we are the most disgusting and dangerous entity not only on
>earth but in the Universe in our natural man.  Tadah - Adamic Sin Nature.
>>It is long past time that we humans, collectively, take responsibility
>for our actions, both now and in the future.  Generations hence will ask
>why we were so cavalier about the gifts of this world; why were we so
>wanton in our disregard for “Creation”.  Some ask these questions of our
>past right now.
>Correct, but this is achieved by dealing with Man as a spiritual being via
>"religion".  It can not be done by secular humanism (= man can resolve his
>own problems by himself).  The "why not?" is very simple, one can't solve a
>spiritual problem by natural means or visa versa.
>Is Homo sapiens a part of nature?  Yes and no from the religious
>perspective, and because of the no he is responsible (for it) and
>accountable (to God).   Only yes from the strictly evolutional perspective,
>and in which he is neither responsible or accountable.   I have never heard
>of any single creature or group express any complains against us nor bring
>any charges - they are unaware and don't care.  So we sure aren't
>accountable to them.  Our sense of responsibility is thus not due to any
>complaint from things natural, it is that of god in every man - conscience.
>Something only Spirit beings have.
>Ron Gatrelle
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