Monarchs and Monoculture in southern Michigan

Grkovich, Alex agrkovich at
Sat Aug 27 16:37:48 EDT 2005

And Mark...
If he responds, just ignore him...Those types hate to be ignored...which is why they spout off in the first's the attention they crave...


From: owner-leps-l at on behalf of Mark Walker
Sent: Sat 8/27/2005 3:59 PM
To: neil at; LEPS-L at
Subject: RE: Monarchs and Monoculture in southern Michigan

Wow, Neil - just like old times.

You are the one who is predictable.  And you are the one who loves to
rehash - who is stuck in a mindset.  Not me.  And exactly what does my
spirituality have to do with any of this?

First of all, how is it that I abuse(d) you?  By calling you out?  You are
not as scientific or logical as you think, which is your first mistake.
Anyone who argues with you is, by your own assessment, an idiot incapable of
scientific thought.  That is the first sign of "bad science" - and in fact
of a closed mind.

Here are a few examples that reveal the soundness of your debating skills:

"You know Ken, up there in Alaska you don't seem to understand what modern
agriculture is doing to butterfly populations..."

"Of course we know he will never let bad data get into the way of a good
piece of fake science..."

"I am very surprised that you are asking this question..."

"Despite knowing that your argument is false, you have still insisted on
posting it..."

"This, unlike your jolly jaunts with a digital camera, is well documented
proven research..."

"For goodness sakes, wise up and stop being so silly..."

"Just because I see the world in a very technical and logical way and you

"I know you don't see technical things well..."

"(you remember I predicted your result)"

etc, etc, etc.  And that is only going back two days.  You may actually be a
good guy, but I've never seen any evidence of it.  I am indeed a hypocrite,
because I am pulling a Neil right now - but someone has to do it.  I just
can't stand back and watch Neil spew his egotistical rants without a volley.
I apologize to the rest of you for it.

For the record, I operated Nuclear Reactors for the U.S. Navy (1977-1983), I
am a certified journeyman electrician, I hold a Bachelor's of Science in
Electrical Engineering (Cal Polytechnic University, 1990), a Masters of
Science in Computer Engineering (University of Southern California, 1994),
two technical patents in applied Artificial Intelligence (1998), and I am
currently a senior scientist for General Atomics, where I specialize in the
specification of software architectures for intelligent systems.
Fortunately for me, no one consulted Neil Jones to see if I possessed any
technical skills.

Also for the record, Neil, my post to you was not in defense of Paul or Ed.
I have nothing whatsoever to add to their discussion, unlike you - oh
wonderful, superior intelligent one.  Forgive me for questioning you and
your logical prowess, for I am a God-seeker, and therefore obviously not up
to the task.

Mark Walker

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-leps-l at [mailto:owner-leps-l at]On
Behalf Of Neil Jones
Sent: Saturday, August 27, 2005 9:36 AM
To: LEPS-L at
Subject: Re: Monarchs and Monoculture in southern Michigan

On Saturday 27 August 2005 02:33, you wrote:
> Neil wrote:
> <snippage>
> >You know Ken up there in Alaska you don't seem to understand what modern
> agriculture is doing to butterfly populations. Over here in the UK recent
> research, including the world's largest ever butterfly survey, shows that
> over 70% of our butterfly species have delined over the last 20 years and
> they were declining long before that. We have also lost around 98% of the
> flower rich meadows.
> >Again Ecology 101 less habitat = fewer animals.
> ----------------------
> Less habitat = fewer animals.  Considering the difference in size between
> Alaska and the U.K., maybe Neil should do more listening and far less
> preaching.
> Mark Walker

I knew you would respond to that.:-)
I do wish I could persuade you not to abuse me every time I make a technical
argument. I have tried to explain the point, but here it is again.

To put it simplistically, and I accept that things can complicate this, if
decrease the haibtat for a species in any given area there is less food and
resources availiable for the species and therefore there will be less of
particular species. This isn't preaching it is science. Whether Alaska is
bigger than the UK does not figure in the argument.

I think you are a very genuinely nice guy, but it frustrates me everytime
call me names like "spock" etc. Just because I see the world in a very
technical and logical way and you don't, please don't accuse me of not

I know you don't see technical things well because a while back I sort of
persuaded you to take one of the most powerful personality and aptitude
available. You published the result and you are in a category that is not
associated with good ability in technical science issues. (You will remember
I predicted your result.)This doesn't mean you are a bad guy. For from it. I
really enjoy reading your trip reports, and I did even offer to meet you
once. But just because I don't see things as spiritually as you, I am not a
bad guy either.

There are quite a few people on this list who do fit the technical person's
mindset and they DO see the serious problems with Paul Cherubini's argument.
On lists with a lot of professional scientists on, where people with
technical mindsets are naturally drawn, he is very often treated with
contempt or ridicule because of his bad behaviour in trying to manipulate
people with phony figures and dodgy data.

Neil Jones- Neil at


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