[Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon

Sat Feb 16 22:35:05 EST 2013

Doug,
Same thing A. arogos, H. ottoe, H. metea and H. leonardus here in Illinois. Most where common to abundant (where they occurred) into the mid 1990's. At that point they began a rather rapid decline and now haven't been seen for a number of years. Ottoe in particular, well into the 90's could be found by the hundreds in several sites, I saw the last one in Illinois with Bob Pyle in 2008. It, nor the others have been seen since.
Jim Wiker
Greenview, IL

-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis Schlicht <dws1108 at msn.com>
To: MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com>
Cc: leps-l <leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Sent: Sat, Feb 16, 2013 9:11 pm
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon

Doug,
They were doing Ok through the 80's and most of the 90's but then were wiped out by the late 2000's. Poweshiek numbers went from around 100 on one site to none by 2010. These species were on preserves, not farm land, but were surrounded by row crops. Gone or nearly so are O. poweshiek, A. arogos, H. dacotae, H. ottoe and C. inornata. A few others are not far behind.
Dennis Schlicht
Iowa Lepidoptera Project

----- Original Message ----- 

From: MexicoDoug 

To: dws1108 at msn.com 

Cc: leps-l at mailman.yale.edu 

Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:54   AM

Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch   Armageddon

Dennis,

It would be helpful to know whether these   species' disappearances in 
your area were doing well before the Bt corn,   or already on the brink 
of loss due to the farming practices.  Also,   whether this loss you've 
documented is due to the larva of the respective   species ingesting 
amounts toxic to them and dying due to it as was   proposed by the 
Cornell group. If it wasn't, I'd argue the unfortunate   situation was, 
at best, not helped by a raging controversy which IMO   served to divert 
and divide attention from these issues, and not present   work in 
alternate peer reviewed journals - which could be as simple as   computer 
models to maintain a greater degree of biodiversity.

Could   a more collaborative environment have come up with real solutions 
and   perhaps a coordinated crop rotation scheme which maintained some 
useful   wild area interspersed intelligently (where students at local ag 
colleges   in a supportive roll could participate in the design as part 
of their   curriculum)?  Perhaps not.  But it's not too late to find out 
-   I hope.

I'm not trying to be a Monday morning quarterback; and my post   was not 
in support of Bt-corn.  I'm glad it's not in my backyard, and   how 
boring it must be to try to go Lepping in such an area.  It's   seeing 
the tactics used by scientists we trust.  My favorite   butterfly 
observing grounds was a unique mountain foothill habitat on   disturbed 
ground which had become overgrown and basically wild and teaming   with 
over 100 species of butterflies, and at any given time at least 1/3   
that amount.  Now, the many hectares, without exception, are parking   
lots and malls and shopping areas in a series of new sprawled out   
commercial centers - and at the boundaries are residential areas with   
manicured lawns and the like.  The development wiped out everything   
except the cockroaches and people and occasional vagrant that ends up   
plastered to a radiator grill.

I am sure we all are sensitive to   the overpopulation problem.  Every 
year the US adds 3,000,000   people.  In 1965 it was 194 million; today, 
over 315 million.    It is difficult for me to fathom how much equivalent 
habit is destroyed   for each person for their activities (imagine 
3,000,000 dumped   concentrated into your state - that is approximately 
the average amount by   state since 1965, btw) , "infrastructure 
development", and of course the   food they require.  For some reason no 
one is having any success in   controlling this and we are stuck with 
these consequences   everywhere.  We could outsource farming, by 
importing more food from   Canada, etc., but then we'd only be exporting 
the environmental drain with   it to other places...

Very sorry to hear what you   reported,
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From:   Dennis Schlicht <dws1108 at msn.com>
To: leps-l <leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>;   MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com>
Sent: Sat, Feb   16, 2013 9:48 am
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch   Armageddon

Doug,
The article below says Bt corn was 19% of the crop   then. It's 80-90% 
now. While all of this Monarch concern has been going   on, we have lost 
5 prairie obligate butterflies in the tall-grass prairie/   Bt corn 
region (my data in Iowa). Our prairies are surrounded by   corn.
Dennis Schlicht
  ----- Original Message -----
    From: MexicoDoug
  To: monarch at saber.net ; leps-l at mailman.yale.edu
    Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:35   AM
  Subject: Re:   [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch   Armageddon

"Doug, it was   Lincoln Brower who first set the precedent
for   using the word   "Armageddon" in this article and others like     it:"

Paul,

Huh ;-0 ??? I honestly didn't know and   wouldn't   expect he was the
source.

I wonder what the   majority of unbiased   scientists think of someone of
Lincoln   Brower's repute throwing out words   such as "Armageddon"   to
describe the evolving sciences in   agro-biotechnology. This   is really
an insult to science;   'Armageddon' has deeply   religious connotations
and is from the New   Testament Bible the   destruction of the Devil an
epic battle when God comes   down and   unleashes his fury. What place 
do
such religious     overtone-statements have in science other than to
polarize/bias,   divert   and offend researchers and   constructive
discussion?

I just Googled,   and sadly it   seems you are right. I found this 
article
in Mother   Jones   that Brower had written in 2001, which was a result 
of
the   GMO   scandal that developed at that time:

http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85

It     gives me insight, to say the least.

It seems that Brower for   some   reason couldn't participate in the USDA
grant for the   research into the   GMO-larva topic program and $200,000
grant   (which he considered a   pittance). Another diverse team   of
experts with some of the finest   academic credentials in this   country
was selected and a paper resulted   published in the most   prestigious
peer reviewed journal in the United   States - The   Proceedings of the
National Academy of Sciences:

http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113

Brower's     political statement printed in Mother Jones strikes me as   a
scathing,   rambling condemnation and conspiracy theory -   political
mobilization   strategy. Is that an appropriate place   to refute a
publication by   trashing everyone in government and   industry? Or 
would
it be better   to respond in the same peer   review journal which accepts 

contrary/disagreement submissions in a   specific format for this purpose 

called "Letters to the PNAS". I   couldn't find any retort.    Maybe
you'll have better   luck:

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters

In     the 1960's time frame Lincoln had the honor to be published in   
thwe
PNAS   himself, at least 4 times. He is also an   excellent speaker.

Is   the "Bt-corn killing monarch larvae"   in the field still
objectionable by   ecologists anymore, on a   scientific basis? Now I 
think
it finally hit me   why the   monarch topic is avoided by some   list
members.

Best
Doug

-----Original   Message-----
From:   Paul Cherubini   &lt;monarch at saber.net&gt;
To: Leps List     &lt;leps-l at mailman.yale.edu&gt;
Sent:   Fri, Feb 15, 2013   4:46 pm
Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch     Armageddon

On Feb 15, 2013, at 1:00 PM, MexicoDoug     wrote:

&gt; I added the search term "Armageddon" for     fun.

Doug, it was Lincoln Brower who first set the   precedent
for   using the word "Armageddon" in this article and   others like it:
http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php

In     the article Lincoln said this about Roundup herbicide use
in the GMO   crops   of the upper Midwest:

“It kills everything. It’s   biodiversity   Armageddon,"

And Lincoln and Chip Taylor   collaborated on a paper
and   wrote: "We conclude that, because   of the extensive
use of glyphosate   herbicide on crops that are   genetically
modified to resist the herbicide,   milkweeds will   disappear
almost completely from croplands."

But the     critically important information they don't mention
in their paper is   that   the field margins of these Roundup
treated GMO crops are   teaming with   bumblebees, honeybees,
monarchs and butterflies   like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE

So     those GMO croplands are not hardly a legitimate
example of      "Biodiversity Armageddon"

Paul Cherubini
El Dorado,     Calif.

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