[Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon

Sat Feb 16 22:11:17 EST 2013

Doug,
They were doing Ok through the 80's and most of the 90's but then were wiped out by the late 2000's. Poweshiek numbers went from around 100 on one site to none by 2010. These species were on preserves, not farm land, but were surrounded by row crops. Gone or nearly so are O. poweshiek, A. arogos, H. dacotae, H. ottoe and C. inornata. A few others are not far behind.
Dennis Schlicht
Iowa Lepidoptera Project
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: MexicoDoug<mailto:mexicodoug at aol.com> 
  To: dws1108 at msn.com<mailto:dws1108 at msn.com> 
  Cc: leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu> 
  Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 11:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon

  Dennis,

  It would be helpful to know whether these species' disappearances in 
  your area were doing well before the Bt corn, or already on the brink 
  of loss due to the farming practices.  Also, whether this loss you've 
  documented is due to the larva of the respective species ingesting 
  amounts toxic to them and dying due to it as was proposed by the 
  Cornell group. If it wasn't, I'd argue the unfortunate situation was, 
  at best, not helped by a raging controversy which IMO served to divert 
  and divide attention from these issues, and not present work in 
  alternate peer reviewed journals - which could be as simple as computer 
  models to maintain a greater degree of biodiversity.

  Could a more collaborative environment have come up with real solutions 
  and perhaps a coordinated crop rotation scheme which maintained some 
  useful wild area interspersed intelligently (where students at local ag 
  colleges in a supportive roll could participate in the design as part 
  of their curriculum)?  Perhaps not.  But it's not too late to find out 
  - I hope.

  I'm not trying to be a Monday morning quarterback; and my post was not 
  in support of Bt-corn.  I'm glad it's not in my backyard, and how 
  boring it must be to try to go Lepping in such an area.  It's seeing 
  the tactics used by scientists we trust.  My favorite butterfly 
  observing grounds was a unique mountain foothill habitat on disturbed 
  ground which had become overgrown and basically wild and teaming with 
  over 100 species of butterflies, and at any given time at least 1/3 
  that amount.  Now, the many hectares, without exception, are parking 
  lots and malls and shopping areas in a series of new sprawled out 
  commercial centers - and at the boundaries are residential areas with 
  manicured lawns and the like.  The development wiped out everything 
  except the cockroaches and people and occasional vagrant that ends up 
  plastered to a radiator grill.

  I am sure we all are sensitive to the overpopulation problem.  Every 
  year the US adds 3,000,000 people.  In 1965 it was 194 million; today, 
  over 315 million.  It is difficult for me to fathom how much equivalent 
  habit is destroyed for each person for their activities (imagine 
  3,000,000 dumped concentrated into your state - that is approximately 
  the average amount by state since 1965, btw) , "infrastructure 
  development", and of course the food they require.  For some reason no 
  one is having any success in controlling this and we are stuck with 
  these consequences everywhere.  We could outsource farming, by 
  importing more food from Canada, etc., but then we'd only be exporting 
  the environmental drain with it to other places...

  Very sorry to hear what you reported,
  Doug

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Dennis Schlicht <dws1108 at msn.com<mailto:dws1108 at msn.com>>
  To: leps-l <leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>>; MexicoDoug <mexicodoug at aol.com<mailto:mexicodoug at aol.com>>
  Sent: Sat, Feb 16, 2013 9:48 am
  Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch Armageddon

  Doug,
  The article below says Bt corn was 19% of the crop then. It's 80-90% 
  now. While all of this Monarch concern has been going on, we have lost 
  5 prairie obligate butterflies in the tall-grass prairie/ Bt corn 
  region (my data in Iowa). Our prairies are surrounded by corn.
  Dennis Schlicht
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: MexicoDoug
    To: monarch at saber.net<mailto:monarch at saber.net> ; leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>
    Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:35   AM
    Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch   Armageddon

  "Doug, it was Lincoln Brower who first set the precedent
  for   using the word "Armageddon" in this article and others like   it:"

  Paul,

  Huh ;-0 ??? I honestly didn't know and wouldn't   expect he was the
  source.

  I wonder what the majority of unbiased   scientists think of someone of
  Lincoln Brower's repute throwing out words   such as "Armageddon" to
  describe the evolving sciences in   agro-biotechnology. This is really
  an insult to science;   'Armageddon' has deeply religious connotations
  and is from the New   Testament Bible the destruction of the Devil an
  epic battle when God comes   down and unleashes his fury. What place 
  do
  such religious   overtone-statements have in science other than to
  polarize/bias, divert   and offend researchers and constructive
  discussion?

  I just Googled,   and sadly it seems you are right. I found this 
  article
  in Mother   Jones that Brower had written in 2001, which was a result 
  of
  the GMO   scandal that developed at that time:

  http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85<http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/85>

  It   gives me insight, to say the least.

  It seems that Brower for some   reason couldn't participate in the USDA
  grant for the research into the   GMO-larva topic program and $200,000
  grant (which he considered a   pittance). Another diverse team of
  experts with some of the finest   academic credentials in this country
  was selected and a paper resulted   published in the most prestigious
  peer reviewed journal in the United   States - The Proceedings of the
  National Academy of Sciences:

  http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113<http://www.pnas.org/content/98/21/11937.abstract?sid=e059121b-ade8-4518-895c-2c10e4c5b113>

  Brower's   political statement printed in Mother Jones strikes me as a
  scathing,   rambling condemnation and conspiracy theory - political
  mobilization   strategy. Is that an appropriate place to refute a
  publication by   trashing everyone in government and industry? Or 
  would
  it be better   to respond in the same peer review journal which accepts 

  contrary/disagreement submissions in a specific format for this purpose 

  called "Letters to the PNAS". I couldn't find any retort.    Maybe
  you'll have better luck:

  http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters<http://www.pnas.org/cgi/collection/letters>

  In   the 1960's time frame Lincoln had the honor to be published in 
  thwe
  PNAS   himself, at least 4 times. He is also an excellent speaker.

  Is   the "Bt-corn killing monarch larvae" in the field still
  objectionable by   ecologists anymore, on a scientific basis? Now I 
  think
  it finally hit me   why the monarch topic is avoided by some list
  members.

  Best
  Doug

  -----Original Message-----
  From:   Paul Cherubini &lt;monarch at saber.net&gt;
  To: Leps List   &lt;leps-l at mailman.yale.edu&gt;
  Sent:   Fri, Feb 15, 2013 4:46 pm
  Subject: Re: [Leps-l] [leps-talk] Monarch   Armageddon

  On Feb 15, 2013, at 1:00 PM, MexicoDoug   wrote:

  &gt; I added the search term "Armageddon" for   fun.

  Doug, it was Lincoln Brower who first set the precedent
  for   using the word "Armageddon" in this article and others like it:
  http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php<http://www.non-gmoreport.com/articles/july2011/GMcropsmonarchbutterflieshabitat.php>

  In   the article Lincoln said this about Roundup herbicide use
  in the GMO crops   of the upper Midwest:

  “It kills everything. It’s biodiversity   Armageddon,"

  And Lincoln and Chip Taylor collaborated on a paper
  and   wrote: "We conclude that, because of the extensive
  use of glyphosate   herbicide on crops that are genetically
  modified to resist the herbicide,   milkweeds will disappear
  almost completely from croplands."

  But the   critically important information they don't mention
  in their paper is that   the field margins of these Roundup
  treated GMO crops are teaming with   bumblebees, honeybees,
  monarchs and butterflies like this:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZCOJnJU1UE>

  So   those GMO croplands are not hardly a legitimate
  example of    "Biodiversity Armageddon"

  Paul Cherubini
  El Dorado,   Calif.

  _______________________________________________
  Leps-l   mailing list
  Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>
  http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/leps-l<http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/leps-l>

  _______________________________________________
  Leps-l   mailing list
  Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:Leps-l at mailman.yale.edu>
  http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/leps-l<http://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/leps-l>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.yale.edu/pipermail/leps-l/attachments/20130216/c412db42/attachment-0001.html 