[Leps-l] Deniers

Sun Feb 17 11:29:18 EST 2013

The continued use of the word 'deniers' on this list is so childish.  I've
been reading and learning from the very highly esteemed people in this
group (and in other groups) for years.  You guys are WAY above resorting to
referring to people who question your hypotheses with a term that is
repugnant most people on this list.  I love reading the various points of
view, and I can see persuasive arguments on both sides, but the word denier
just ruins any credibility you might have in my mind.  All we need is the
other side to start referring to their opponents as 'bed wetters' and then
we can all pull each others hair at recess.  Next thing you know we will
have the collectors / watchers nonsense rear it's ugly head again.  Rise
above it peoples.

That's my honest opinion from a very VERY amateur entomologist.

Todd in Manitoba (formerly in Toronto)

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 10:12 AM, spruance spruance
<spruance at beyondbb.com>wrote:

> Hi all,  First some local weather data:
>
> At lower elevation (4,500') on the east side of the continental divide in
> Alamogordo NM, our temps fluctuate daily, as is normal for the desert, and
> I see butterflies every day in my butterfly garden.  And the normal
> "winter"geometrids gather nightly at my porch light in the crepuscular
> hours before the temps drop into the 20s. We have snow on the mountain
> behind my house, but the snow pack is well below "normal" (whatever that is
> now-a-days), and the moisture content of the snow is very low.  The
> contribution of the snow to Spring run-offs will be negligable, compared to
> "normal."  The leps survive as they have for millenia, but the species
> composition and relative abundance are undoubtedly changing.  We
> desperately need longitudinal quantitative data on Lepidoptera  (temp &
> precipitation changes are well documented with real data for New Mexico)
> else the climate change deniers will continue to cherry pick our weakness
> to support other scientific data that human caused change is real.
>
> Out comes the soap-box:
>
> Sadly nearly all Lepidopterists, collectors, observers, and photographers,
> cherry pick when they are in the field by pursuing the rare species, or the
> species needed to fill holes in a collection, or to get the best photo of
> the best specimen, or to report species sure to get the attention of other
> Lepidopterists.  Species lists that appear in these discussion groups do
> not report absolute numbers, nor do they document detailed habitat
> associations of the reported species.
>
> I am not negative about this, I'm encouraged that there are so many
> interested people willing to share.  I encourage us to do better.  I hope
> someday our observations will be comparable to the long term data being
> collected by the Long-Term Monitoring of Butterflies project of The Ohio
> Lepidopterists.
> http://www.ohiolepidopterists.org/bflymonitoring/downloads/BMP%20Manual%202008%20-%20large%20pages.pdf
>
> Please keep the observations coming.  Please add some scientific quality
> to the observations.  Please, as I do, take photographs of each observation
> site, at different times of the year, over many years.  With the digital
> age the photos are easy to incorporate into word processing documents for
> easy annotation and long term storage.
>
> The  weather underground site  http://www.wunderground.com/  is an
> excellent place to obtain actual data for the exact time and place you took
> the photo and made the observations.
>
> Time to put the soapbox away.
>
> Best wishes to all from sunny, unseasonably warm, and drought-stricken
> southern New Mexico.
>
> Eric
>
> Eric Metzler
> Alamogordo NM
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 9:35 PM, Stan Gorodenski <stanlep at commspeed.net>wrote:
>
>> Patrick,
>> Regarding anthropomorphic climate change (ACC) deniers. I had some
>> personal experience where someone approached me, in email, about a paper
>> they wanted me to read. It was presented in such a way as to give the
>> impression that it was just an interesting paper they wanted me to read
>> and to get my reaction. However, I knew this person was a ACC denier and
>> his ulterior motive was to give me a paper that to him showed how right
>> he was and how wrong I was. I read it and discovered some serious flaws
>> in the analysis and data. I presented this to him - and then heard
>> nothing more about it. He still is a ACC denier, though. It appears that
>> when something detracts from the beliefs of some individuals, it is
>> ignored. If it supports their beliefs, it is remembered. This goes along
>> with your idea that deniers do not question their own belief system and
>> what motivates them.
>> Stan
>>
>> On 2/16/2013 9:10 PM, Stan Gorodenski wrote:
>> >
>> > On 2/16/2013 8:16 PM, Foley, Patrick wrote:
>> >
>> >> Count me (and the great majority of atmospheric scientists) among the
>> climate change alarmists.
>> >>
>> >> This is however not my area of expertise. Paul should go argue this
>> out with NOAA scientists. Or any atmospheric scientists.
>> >>
>> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeling_Curve
>> >>
>> >> Skepticism in science is a very useful tool. But one should be
>> skeptical of ones own views also. Nietzsche said once " The courage of
>> one's convictions -- a common error; real courage is questioning one's own
>> convictions." Scientists (including climate change "alarmists") do this all
>> the time. That is the essence of science. As far as I can see, most climate
>> change deniers do not question their own belief systems or what motivates
>> them.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > Good point. This never occurred to me. I wonder if climate change
>> > deniers even know themselves what motivates them. I can see all kinds of
>> > influences, including the political and religious group one belongs to.
>> > I also wonder if it is the culture of anti-science that is fostering
>> > this. The deniers are intelligent. Because of the anti-science culture
>> > they make their own interpretations of data in lieu of those of
>> scientists.
>> > Stan
>> >
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>> >
>>
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