[Nhcoll-l] jar lids

Wed Feb 28 04:35:35 EST 2018

Hi,

I’m working on a huge restauration project involving over 1000 jars
(Ichthyology collection) that have to be resealed or replaced because most
of them are  broken. After long research and discussion whit lots of museum
taxidermist colleagues if come to the conclusion that the best sealed jar is
one with negative pressure, like marmalade jar. The negative pressure can be
reached in an desiccator or a foodsealing machine. We are trying here at the
museum to get a big vacuum-chamber to pressurize lots of jars at the same
time. 

Studies of a colleague have proved that with this method there is almost no
loss of liquid. Off course the best would be to use the boro silicate jars,
but still this method gives good results in normal natrum-soda jars. Sadly
the article on this subject is in german. 

Any suggestions or comments on the subject of vacuuming  jars?

Thanks,

*******************************************

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Fabian Neisskenwirth
Zoologischer Präparator
Naturhistorisches Museum der Burgergemeinde Bern
Bernastrasse 15
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Von: nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu
[mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu] Im Auftrag von Dirk Neumann
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Februar 2018 08:13
An: Jean-Marc Gagnon; Mike Rutherford; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
Betreff: Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids

Good morning Jean-Marc, Mike & Andy!

We have metal lids since the 1990ies in our collection. At the moment, I
occasionally have to replace those which have and additional PE foil
originally thought and introduced to improve the closure. In fact it traps
condensates and accelerates deterioration (rusting ) of lids.

As we have huge troubles with our climate control systems since several
years (system dates back to 1985 and never worked properly, leading to RH
shift btw. 80-30 %, yesterday I was even below 30% ..) and temperature
shifts ranging from 16-24°C, metal lids in our collection are all but under
stable, controlled conditions. Adding to this, we have the quite aggressive
ketone MEK as denaturant. Still, the metal lids do fine, and our
observations in Munich largely agree with observations Emily Dock made in
Stockholm. (Warén, A., E. Dock-Åkerman, and H. Taylor. 2010. Metal-lid jars
in museum collections? Collection Forum 24(1-2):52-61.) 

Perhaps there is a difference in industry norms or production standards
between North America and Europe ? I know the Steigerwald & Laframboise
paper, but the question of taping all jars (and re-doing all taping once the
jars are opened) is a simple cost-benefit question: a metal lid is less then
10 cent and replacing a lid is less then 5 seconds, re-doing the taping
takes 1-2 minutes plus tape costs. We have a rather small, but heavily
frequented collection, so replacing metal lids is the cheaper option for us.

My observation is that PP-lids with PE-liners do fine up to 45 mm neck
opening. Above that (50 mm), closures are not that good and jars show
increased evaporation issues. So our strategy at the moment is: PP-lids with
PE-Liners for 100ml-300 ml jars (rarely 500-1000 with 50 mmm necks),
1200-1700 ml jars with metal lids and above only borosilicate with plane or
ground stopper closures (typical sizes are 300 mm x 80 mm and 300 x 150 mm
for flanged and 400 x 150 mm & 600 x 200 mm for stoppered). 

Mike's question was to replace metal lids for jars which were designed for
metal lids. Because of the narrow threads of those jars and the fact that
opening would be rather wide (if I understood Mike's question correctly), I
doubt that PP-screw on lids for diameters above 50 mm would be a could
replacement. Independent of this I definitely agree that replacement of
entire jars (compromised metal lids in jars with necks up to 50 mm in
diameter) with jars with PP-lids would be a good idea. Depending on the
climatic conditions inside storage. PP lids with PE liners are surely a much
better oxygen barrier compared to PVC.-lids, but still allow diffusion of
oxygen. Metal lids have a better performance in this regard.

In the end there are several trade-offs and no straight forwards solution, I
guess.

All the best
Dirk

Am 27.02.2018 um 21:41 schrieb Jean-Marc Gagnon:

Dirk,

I was a little surprised by your response, promoting metal lids as opposed
to Polypropylene lids. We (at CMN) have not had any success with metal lids,
even with what seems to be reasonable, ethanol-resistant liners. Even the
metal lids designed for Mason Jars, commonly used for preserves in North
America, will rust after a while.

In all our fluid-preserved collections, we have been using with great
success Polypropylene lids for decades (of course, with two full tread
turns), along with the F217 PE liner and sealing tape (see Steigerwald and
Laframboise (1996). TAPE APPLICATION: A JAR SEALING METHOD FOR REDUCING
ETHANOL EVAPORATION IN FLUID-PRESERVED COLLECTIONS. Collection Forum Volume
12, Number 2).

While we haven’t quantitatively measured that success, I can tell you that
in our wet Mollusc Collection, prior to 2002, we would have many jars
needing retopping after only a few years (they often only had the PP lids
with no liner or tape). But after applying the standard I described above in
2002, we literally haven’t had to retop the ethanol in any of the jars in
the past 15-16 years. 

Is it always perfect: No. But we have had very little failure in these lids
and liners. The tape is always reapplied fresh if a jar needs to be open; it
is relatively inexpensive (from Spectape Inc.) so that I not an issue.

I hope this helps.

Jean-Marc

Jean-Marc Gagnon, Ph.D.

Curator/Conservateur, Invertebrate Collections/Collections de invertébrés

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From: nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu
[mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu] On Behalf Of Dirk Neumann
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
To: Mike Rutherford  <mailto:Mike.Rutherford at sta.uwi.edu>
<Mike.Rutherford at sta.uwi.edu>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids

Dear Mike,

depending on the climatic conditions inside you storage area and the holding
fluid the specimens are stored in rusting of lids can be a major issue of
course. However, because of the narrow thread of twist-off jars, I am not
entirely sure of the metal lids can be easily replaced with plastic lids.
The latter usually need higher threads because plastic lids tend to be
deformed when screwed tight. This is the reason why jars with plastic lids
normally have two fully closed thread turns, compared to jars with metal
lids which usually only have half thread turns. 

Moreover, plastic lids (e.g. PE or PP lids) do not form a good barrier
against oxygen, and changing lids might increase or trigger oxidation issues
inside jars.

My advice would be to look into modern metal lids designed for food industry
to close jars with sour ingredients (compared to lids for sweet stuff such
as jam or honey); these usually have thicker liners inside which protect
lids against scratching. Also made bad experiences with (self-designed)
PE-foil inlays, an earlier curator introduced in our collection: the foil is
no good barrier against compounds evaporation from holding fluids, but a
perfect trap to hold condensates inside a tiny, highly corrosive atmosphere
lid and foil which tends to accelerate deterioration of metal lids. 

Might be worth to check in the food sector for replacement lids or inquire
such suppliers where to find 130mm lids.

All the best
Dirk

Am 21.02.2018 um 21:57 schrieb Mike Rutherford:

Hi, 

I’m trying to source large polypropylene screw top lids for some glass jars
I have in my museum. The jars are wide mouthed and squat, making them ideal
for those weird shaped specimens but the current lids are thin metal ones
which are corroding badly. My previous source for lids was Carolina
Biological Supplies but their maximum size of lid is 120mm diameter and I
need ones of 130mm diameter. 

Can anyone suggest a supplier, preferably in the western hemisphere?

Cheers,

Mike

Mr. Mike G. Rutherford
Curator of the University of the West Indies Zoology Museum (UWIZM)
Department of Life Sciences
The University of The West Indies
St. Augustine Campus

Trinidad & Tobago, W.I. 
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