[Nhcoll-l] jar lids
Dirk Neumann
dirk.neumann at zsm.mwn.de
Thu Mar 1 16:05:51 EST 2018
Hi Jean-Marc & Andy,
agree with your points - this is the reason why we prefer metal lids
above 100 mm and PP with PE-liner for diameters < 55 mm. Requesting a
samples especially for PP-lids surely is a good idea. With our last
order, we received PP-lids with PE-foam inlays, which we had to return
to the supplier because of the known issues of foamed inlays.
All the best
Dirk
Am 01.03.2018 um 20:55 schrieb Jean-Marc Gagnon:
>
> Dirk,
>
> I agree with Andy that larger PP lids, with proper 1.5-turn thread,
> and if possible with a good liner, will still give good results.
>
> Occasionally, however, a supplier will send us lids that are too thin
> and tend to change shape; even worst when these same lids only have
> one turn for the thread.
>
> So it is a good thing to ask for samples before actually purchasing a
> large quantity.
>
> As we move to lids larger than 100mm, it is more difficult to find the
> proper thread and a F217 liner.
>
> So, it is not perfect for those larger jars.
>
> Jean-Marc
>
> *From:*Dirk Neumann [mailto:dirk.neumann at zsm.mwn.de]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 28, 2018 2:13 AM
> *To:* Jean-Marc Gagnon <JMGAGNON at nature.ca>; Mike Rutherford
> <Mike.Rutherford at sta.uwi.edu>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids
>
> Good morning Jean-Marc, Mike & Andy!
>
> We have metal lids since the 1990ies in our collection. At the moment,
> I occasionally have to replace those which have and additional PE foil
> originally thought and introduced to improve the closure. In fact it
> traps condensates and accelerates deterioration (rusting ) of lids.
>
> As we have huge troubles with our climate control systems since
> several years (system dates back to 1985 and never worked properly,
> leading to RH shift btw. 80-30 %, yesterday I was even below 30% ..)
> and temperature shifts ranging from 16-24°C, metal lids in our
> collection are all but under stable, controlled conditions. Adding to
> this, we have the quite aggressive ketone MEK as denaturant. Still,
> the metal lids do fine, and our observations in Munich largely agree
> with observations Emily Dock made in Stockholm. (Warén, A., E.
> Dock-Åkerman, and H. Taylor. 2010. Metal-lid jars in museum
> collections? /Collection Forum/ 24(1-2):52-61.)
>
> Perhaps there is a difference in industry norms or production
> standards between North America and Europe ? I know the Steigerwald &
> Laframboise paper, but the question of taping all jars (and re-doing
> all taping once the jars are opened) is a simple cost-benefit
> question: a metal lid is less then 10 cent and replacing a lid is less
> then 5 seconds, re-doing the taping takes 1-2 minutes plus tape costs.
> We have a rather small, but heavily frequented collection, so
> replacing metal lids is the cheaper option for us.
>
> My observation is that PP-lids with PE-liners do fine up to 45 mm neck
> opening. Above that (50 mm), closures are not that good and jars show
> increased evaporation issues. So our strategy at the moment is:
> PP-lids with PE-Liners for 100ml-300 ml jars (rarely 500-1000 with 50
> mmm necks), 1200-1700 ml jars with metal lids and above only
> borosilicate with plane or ground stopper closures (typical sizes are
> 300 mm x 80 mm and 300 x 150 mm for flanged and 400 x 150 mm & 600 x
> 200 mm for stoppered).
>
> Mike's question was to replace metal lids for jars which were designed
> for metal lids. Because of the narrow threads of those jars and the
> fact that opening would be rather wide (if I understood Mike's
> question correctly), I doubt that PP-screw on lids for diameters above
> 50 mm would be a could replacement. Independent of this I definitely
> agree that replacement of entire jars (compromised metal lids in jars
> with necks up to 50 mm in diameter) with jars with PP-lids would be a
> good idea. Depending on the climatic conditions inside storage. PP
> lids with PE liners are surely a much better oxygen barrier compared
> to PVC.-lids, but still allow diffusion of oxygen. Metal lids have a
> better performance in this regard.
>
> In the end there are several trade-offs and no straight forwards
> solution, I guess.
>
> All the best
> Dirk
>
>
> Am 27.02.2018 um 21:41 schrieb Jean-Marc Gagnon:
>
> Dirk,
>
> I was a little surprised by your response, promoting metal lids as
> opposed to Polypropylene lids. We (at CMN) have not had any
> success with metal lids, even with what seems to be reasonable,
> ethanol-resistant liners. Even the metal lids designed for Mason
> Jars, commonly used for preserves in North America, will rust
> after a while.
>
> In all our fluid-preserved collections, we have been using with
> great success Polypropylene lids for decades (of course, with two
> full tread turns), along with the F217 PE liner and sealing tape
> (see Steigerwald and Laframboise (1996). TAPE APPLICATION: A JAR
> SEALING METHOD FOR REDUCING ETHANOL EVAPORATION IN FLUID-PRESERVED
> COLLECTIONS. Collection Forum Volume 12, Number 2).
>
> While we haven’t quantitatively measured that success, I can tell
> you that in our wet Mollusc Collection, prior to 2002, we would
> have many jars needing retopping after only a few years (they
> often only had the PP lids with no liner or tape). But after
> applying the standard I described above in 2002, we literally
> haven’t had to retop the ethanol in any of the jars in the past
> 15-16 years.
>
> Is it always perfect: No. But we have had very little failure in
> these lids and liners. The tape is always reapplied fresh if a jar
> needs to be open; it is relatively inexpensive (from Spectape
> Inc.) so that I not an issue.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Jean-Marc
>
> Jean-Marc Gagnon, Ph.D.
>
> Curator/Conservateur, Invertebrate Collections/Collections de
> invertébrés
>
> Tel : 613-364-4066, email/courriel : jmgagnon at nature.ca
> <mailto:jmgagnon at nature.ca>
>
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>
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>
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>
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> *From:*nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu
> <mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu>
> [mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu] *On Behalf Of *Dirk Neumann
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 AM
> *To:* Mike Rutherford <Mike.Rutherford at sta.uwi.edu>
> <mailto:Mike.Rutherford at sta.uwi.edu>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
> <mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] jar lids
>
> Dear Mike,
>
> depending on the climatic conditions inside you storage area and
> the holding fluid the specimens are stored in rusting of lids can
> be a major issue of course. However, because of the narrow thread
> of twist-off jars, I am not entirely sure of the metal lids can be
> easily replaced with plastic lids. The latter usually need higher
> threads because plastic lids tend to be deformed when screwed
> tight. This is the reason why jars with plastic lids normally have
> two fully closed thread turns, compared to jars with metal lids
> which usually only have half thread turns.
>
> Moreover, plastic lids (e.g. PE or PP lids) do not form a good
> barrier against oxygen, and changing lids might increase or
> trigger oxidation issues inside jars.
>
> My advice would be to look into modern metal lids designed for
> food industry to close jars with sour ingredients (compared to
> lids for sweet stuff such as jam or honey); these usually have
> thicker liners inside which protect lids against scratching. Also
> made bad experiences with (self-designed) PE-foil inlays, an
> earlier curator introduced in our collection: the foil is no good
> barrier against compounds evaporation from holding fluids, but a
> perfect trap to hold condensates inside a tiny, highly corrosive
> atmosphere lid and foil which tends to accelerate deterioration of
> metal lids.
>
> Might be worth to check in the food sector for replacement lids or
> inquire such suppliers where to find 130mm lids.
>
> All the best
> Dirk
>
> Am 21.02.2018 um 21:57 schrieb Mike Rutherford:
>
> Hi,
>
> I’m trying to source large polypropylene screw top lids for
> some glass jars I have in my museum. The jars are wide mouthed
> and squat, making them ideal for those weird shaped specimens
> but the current lids are thin metal ones which are corroding
> badly. My previous source for lids was Carolina Biological
> Supplies but their maximum size of lid is 120mm diameter and I
> need ones of 130mm diameter.
>
> Can anyone suggest a supplier, preferably in the western
> hemisphere?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mike
>
> *Mr. Mike G. Rutherford*
> Curator of the University of the West Indies Zoology Museum
> (UWIZM)
> Department of Life Sciences
> *The University of The West Indies
> St. Augustine Campus*
>
> *Trinidad & Tobago, W.I.*
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>
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> Dirk Neumann
>
>
>
> Tel: 089 / 8107-111
>
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>
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>
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> ---------
>
>
>
> Dirk Neumann
>
>
>
> Tel: +49-89-8107-111
>
> Fax: +49-89-8107-300
>
> email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de
>
>
>
> postal address:
>
>
>
> Bavarian Natural History Collections
>
> The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
>
> Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage
>
> Muenchhausenstr. 21
>
> 81247 Munich (Germany)
>
>
>
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> --
> Dirk Neumann
> Tel: 089 / 8107-111
> Fax: 089 / 8107-300
> email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de
> Postanschrift:
> Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns
> Zoologische Staatssammlung München
> Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage
> Münchhausenstr. 21
> 81247 München
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> ---------
> Dirk Neumann
> Tel: +49-89-8107-111
> Fax: +49-89-8107-300
> email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de
> postal address:
> Bavarian Natural History Collections
> The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
> Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage
> Muenchhausenstr. 21
> 81247 Munich (Germany)
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--
Dirk Neumann
Tel: 089 / 8107-111
Fax: 089 / 8107-300
email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de
Postanschrift:
Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns
Zoologische Staatssammlung München
Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage
Münchhausenstr. 21
81247 München
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---------
Dirk Neumann
Tel: +49-89-8107-111
Fax: +49-89-8107-300
email: Dirk.Neumann(a)zsm.mwn.de
postal address:
Bavarian Natural History Collections
The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage
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