[Nhcoll-l] Jar liners

Fri Nov 20 08:43:00 EST 2020

Hi Paul,

interesting observations! Do you know further details on the make-up of 
the F217 liners? Read this morning that they have an upper and lower 
PE-layer that shields the foam structure in between. Maybe that's why 
they remain rather stable?

Metal lids: around the 1990ies some also used PE-foil as self-made inlay 
(often recycled from bags used to ship specimens), saw this in some 
collections, inherited this here, too. My observation is that moisture 
gets trapped between inlay & metal lids which seems to accelerate 
deterioration of metal lids (e.g. pinpoint rusting or rust that starts 
blooming along the inner liner. Without this, they metal lids can 
perform quite well (> 30 years in our collection), if they fail, they 
are easy to replace (standardised sizes, I lids costs less then 5 cent).

All the best
Dirk

Am 20.11.2020 um 14:00 schrieb Callomon,Paul:
>
> We recently overhauled our 50,000-jar alcohol collection for the first 
> time in 50 years. We found the following things for lids on screw-top 
> jars:
>
>   * Steel lids are problematic. Ours were painted black on the outside
>     and cadmium-plated inside with solid plastic seals. The seals had
>     almost all held, but the lids themselves had pinpoint rusting from
>     the inside due to condensation. If those pinpoints get through the
>     metal, the lid is more likely to fail. We’ve replaced them all.
>   * PPE lids with either solid PPE disks or F217 liners are both fine.
>     We started using them in the 1980s (PPE disks) and 1990s (F217)
>     and both have lasted well, with a failure rate below 1%
>   * Phenolic lids with coneseal liners – very good. Bakelite and
>     phenolic lids with food-grade-paper (coated or foil-laminated
>     card) liners – high failure rate. We replaced them all.
>   * Note that there is a difference between pure phenolic resin and
>     Bakelite. The latter has wood dust mixed with the resin, and
>     always fails over time, often suddenly and completely. You can
>     usually tell the difference by the gloss, color and size; Bakelite
>     is not as black or as glossy as phenolic. If it’s over 50 mm in
>     diameter it’s likely to be Bakelite.
>   * However, as Dirk points out, although phenolic resin is fine with
>     ethanol it can be affected by formaldehyde. We have also found
>     that phenolic will leach dark color into alcohol if it is immersed
>     for more than a year, so it’s clearly not entirely stable to
>     ethanol either.
>
> Finally, though they are not available in small sizes the most stable 
> and economical jars in our collection are bale jars with galvanized 
> steel bale clips and either natural rubber, butyl or neoprene gaskets 
> (e. g. “Ball”-brand jars). These effectively never fail.
>
> *Paul Callomon MSc*
> /Collection Manager, Malacology and General Invertebrates/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *Academy of Natural Sciences of Drexel University, Philadelphia***
>
> 1900 Benjamin Franklin Parkway, Philadelphia PA 19103-1195, USA
> /prc44 at drexel.edu <mailto:prc44 at drexel.edu> Tel 215-405-5096 - Fax 
> 215-299-1170/
>
> *From:*Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> *On Behalf Of 
> *Neisskenwirth, Fabian
> *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2020 4:09 AM
> *To:* 'neumann at snsb.de' <neumann at snsb.de>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners
>
> *External.*
>
> Hey there,
>
> I totally agree with Dirks statement. Glass lids are much more stable 
> than any other kind of material used in fluid collections.
>
> I would like to share my experience with a sort of new jar type from 
> Duran® (former Schott). They have a product line called “GLS 80” jars. 
> It has a mouth opening of 80 mm, but the size varies from 500ml to 
> 25000 ml. The mouth opening works very well for smaller specimens.
>
> The jars are made of borosilicate and sold at an affordable price, 
> because they are made for the pharma industry. This is why they also 
> have “filling marks”, which esthetically speaking is not so nice, but 
> it still fulfills the purpose of the jar. One of the sales agents of 
> DWK (Duran Group), offered me that at a certain amount of jars, there 
> could be a batch (around 1000 jars) made without “filling marks”.
>
> There is a new type of lid for this jars too, made of Polysulfone 
> (PSU) with a PTFE coated silicone liner.
>
> The Duran Group works worldwide, so if you have any questions 
> regarding this contact Eric Lehnen (eric.lehnen at dwk.com 
> <mailto:eric.lehnen at dwk.com>). He knows about the use of the jars for 
> collections purpose.
>
> This seems to be a very good improvement to move away from poor 
> quality “sausage jars” with fast degrading lids.
>
> I have made a one year aging test with three jars with ethanol 70% 
> mixed with a buffered formaldehyde solution 3,4% (9:1) and have seen 
> no negative reactions on the lids. But this still should be tested 
> more thoroughly.
>
> Hope this helps you out!
>
> --
>
> *Fabian Neisskenwirth*
>
> Zoologischer Präparator
>
> MA Student Restaurierung und Konservierung von Kulturgut
>
> +49 (0) 201 24681 470
>
> *Stiftung Ruhr Museum*
>
> Fritz-Schupp-Allee 15
>
> 45141 Essen
>
> www.ruhrmuseum.de 
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ruhrmuseum.de%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cprc44%40drexel.edu%7C97d4cbe4227a49e36f4408d88d33ed2f%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C1%7C637414601473720399%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=0nUb6Zz4DTtn0E8%2FObkZeZTlVyUuyYfay7x2hwao2rI%3D&reserved=0>
>
> *Von:*Nhcoll-l [mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu 
> <mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu>] *Im Auftrag von *Dirk Neumann
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 20. November 2020 09:10
> *An:* nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu <mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
> *Betreff:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] Jar liners
>
> Hi Tonya & Lennart,
>
> I guess there are several layers to unfold here:
>
> Foamed liners - like the F217 liners you mention - consist of a foamed 
> cell structure which - if the lid is screwed down tight - is 
> compressed again the neck of the jar. This outs the cells under 
> pressure and closed cells would withstand this tension better then 
> open cell structures. It is hard to tell if the F217 liners you 
> mention has open or closed cells, which gas is used for filling of the 
> foam structure, etc. Even if the F217 liners would have the right 
> composition, right thickness, closed cells - it still a is 
> compressible gasket which has a limited life span.
>
> To produce a good closure, you would further need to consider the 
> threads on the jar (continuous or not), the composition of the lid 
> itself (the best liner does not help if the plastic used for the lid 
> itself is of poor quality, etc. Most important seems to me that sizes 
> of such lids are standardised (rather then customised for specific 
> jars), so that they can easily be replaced if they fail. This is one 
> of the huge problems many collections with Copehagen jars now face 
> after plastic lids reached the end of their life span, sized where 
> customised, company went out of production: it is virtually impossible 
> to replace these lids - which causes huge problems in many collections.
>
> It seems that F217 and PTFE liners are often used as inlays for 
> Phenolic caps (Bakelite) - which is a no-go in fluid collections 
> because this sort of thermoset plastics is easily degraded by residual 
> formaldehyde escaping from formaldehyde preserved specimens, even if 
> they have been transferred in to alcohol. As said: the best liner is 
> worthless if the plastic lid itself is unsuited.
>
> In general, plastic lids are not a good oxygen barrier - this is also 
> worth remembering, especially if specimens inside such jars release a 
> lot of fats or oils.
>
> Rather then concentrating on specific lids I would look into jars that 
> are designed for the pharmaceutical sector. Here, both the jar 
> (soda-lime glass) and the lid are expected (and usually tested) to 
> withstand a wide range of chemicals AND to provide a good barrier 
> against oxygen.
>
> There are different suppliers of such jars, the disadvantage of the 
> wide mouth jars however is that the largest opening in these jars is 
> 65 mm. So a good option for for 100 - 1000 ml jars, but not for larger 
> jars.  Stölzle (who also produce high quality borosilicate stoppered 
> jars) is a possible source for such jars, but there are many others as 
> well: https://pharma.stoelzle.com/en/product_category/weithalsglaser/ 
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpharma.stoelzle.com%2Fen%2Fproduct_category%2Fweithalsglaser%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cprc44%40drexel.edu%7C97d4cbe4227a49e36f4408d88d33ed2f%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C1%7C637414601473730392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=hC1jgMeeoV9txtIntv14ALQRAqC1%2Fcf6qs2jE%2FjX9i8%3D&reserved=0> 
>
>
> So as mostly no clear cut answer, but hopefully one that is useful.
>
> All the best
>
> Dirk
>
> Am 20.11.2020 um 00:29 schrieb Haff, Tonya (NCMI, Crace):
>
>     Hi all,
>
>     I know I’ve asked about this before, but may I please clarify
>     again…. Does anyone have preference regarding PTFE (e.g. Teflon, I
>     believe) lid liners vs F217 liners, which are layered polyethylene
>     (as far as I understand). Can anyone give me advice as to what
>     would be better as a lid liner for specimens kept in 70-90% EtOH?
>     Advice very appreciated!
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     Tonya
>
>     ---------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Dr Tonya Haff
>
>     Collections Manager
>
>     Australian National Wildlife Collection
>
>     National Research Collections Australia, CSIRO
>
>     Canberra, Australia
>
>     Phone: (+61) 02 6242 1566 (office)
>
>     (+61) 0419 569 109 (mobile)
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     Nhcoll-l mailing list
>
>     Nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu <mailto:Nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
>
>     https://mailman.yale.edu/mailman/listinfo/nhcoll-l
>     <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailman.yale.edu%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fnhcoll-l&data=04%7C01%7Cprc44%40drexel.edu%7C97d4cbe4227a49e36f4408d88d33ed2f%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C1%7C637414601473730392%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=Zlrgzmzj8X49aKyoVfubTo1%2F7%2BADOvCHIkcHBVHuEe0%3D&reserved=0>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>
>     NHCOLL-L is brought to you by the Society for the Preservation of
>
>     Natural History Collections (SPNHC), an international society whose
>
>     mission is to improve the preservation, conservation and management of
>
>     natural history collections to ensure their continuing value to
>
>     society. See http://www.spnhc.org
>     <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spnhc.org%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cprc44%40drexel.edu%7C97d4cbe4227a49e36f4408d88d33ed2f%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C1%7C637414601473740390%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=BCan2eqp8YBZtf1Zlwzd8l0bpP2hN%2Bz4Gz7PhAIyck0%3D&reserved=0>
>     for membership information.
>
>     Advertising on NH-COLL-L is inappropriate.
>
> -- 
>
>
> Dirk Neumann
>
> Tel: 089 / 8107-111
> Fax: 089 / 8107-300
> neumann(a)snsb.de
>
> Postanschrift:
>
> Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns
> Zoologische Staatssammlung München
> Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage
> Münchhausenstr. 21
> 81247 München
>
> Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:
> http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/ 
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zsm.mwn.de%2Fsektion%2Fichthyologie-home%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cprc44%40drexel.edu%7C97d4cbe4227a49e36f4408d88d33ed2f%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C1%7C637414601473740390%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=hFMQzhdyVGUKULaaDy29DMZiyFCrqRpsj4su285a5S8%3D&reserved=0>
>
> ---------
>
> Dirk Neumann
>
> Tel: +49-89-8107-111
> Fax: +49-89-8107-300
> neumann(a)snsb.de
>
> postal address:
>
> Bavarian Natural History Collections
> The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
> Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage
> Muenchhausenstr. 21
> 81247 Munich (Germany)
>
> Visit our section at:
> http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/ 
> <https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.zsm.mwn.de%2Fsektion%2Fichthyologie-home%2F&data=04%7C01%7Cprc44%40drexel.edu%7C97d4cbe4227a49e36f4408d88d33ed2f%7C3664e6fa47bd45a696708c4f080f8ca6%7C0%7C1%7C637414601473750384%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=6ABooal%2F6oIEOTFS6uN3Qo99cxASgLMr6WkPGEil1Zc%3D&reserved=0>
>

-- 

Dirk Neumann

Tel: 089 / 8107-111
Fax: 089 / 8107-300
neumann(a)snsb.de

Postanschrift:

Staatliche Naturwissenschaftliche Sammlungen Bayerns
Zoologische Staatssammlung München
Dirk Neumann, Sektion Ichthyologie / DNA-Storage
Münchhausenstr. 21
81247 München

Besuchen Sie unsere Sammlung:
http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/

---------

Dirk Neumann

Tel: +49-89-8107-111
Fax: +49-89-8107-300
neumann(a)snsb.de

postal address:

Bavarian Natural History Collections
The Bavarian State Collection of Zoology
Dirk Neumann, Section Ichthyology / DNA-Storage
Muenchhausenstr. 21
81247 Munich (Germany)

Visit our section at:
http://www.zsm.mwn.de/sektion/ichthyologie-home/

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.yale.edu/pipermail/nhcoll-l/attachments/20201120/6b99d426/attachment.html>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: image001.png
Type: image/png
Size: 8592 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mailman.yale.edu/pipermail/nhcoll-l/attachments/20201120/6b99d426/attachment.png>
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: imggaijepnoelcmk.png
Type: image/png
Size: 23308 bytes
Desc: not available
URL: <http://mailman.yale.edu/pipermail/nhcoll-l/attachments/20201120/6b99d426/attachment-0001.png>