[Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton

Thu Oct 2 06:25:56 EDT 2025

Hi All,

Green and blue coated bones are also common in palaeontology and have turned out to be vivianite coating - which is a hydrated iron phosphate.  It can form naturally in low-oxygen, iron-rich, waterlogged environments on ice-age remains, but also can be found to replace soft tissue in much older material as well (such as the famous conodont animal from the Carboniferous of Scotland).

All the best,

Neil

From: Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> On Behalf Of Walter Johannes
Sent: 02 October 2025 10:19
To: Tir, Jessica K <jessica.tir at wsu.edu>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton

Hi!
Late but might be interesting for you: Green bones are well-established objects in archaeology, resp. archaeozoology and as much I know, it had been always linked to copper minerals in soil or copper objects in graves etc.

e.g.:
[cid:image001.jpg at 01DC338F.51581820]
Best,
Johannes

Von: Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu>> Im Auftrag von Tir, Jessica K
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. September 2025 23:47
An: nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
Betreff: Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton

Hi all,

Thanks for the responses, this is interesting! We apparently received this item via exchange with the Smithsonian (while it was still in fluid), so that adds another set of unknown decisions to the mix.

We did try testing it with an arsenic water test kit, which came up negative, but I wasn’t sure if that test was valid for arsenic pigments. But, the copper container/wire idea does seem more likely. I’ll try to hunt down someone with a portable XRF to confirm!

Maybe I’ll show the bones on our social media when the next Wicked movie comes out...

Thanks,
Jess

[Washington State University Logo: W, S, U, letters create a cougar head.]

Jessica Tir (she/her)

Curator

Charles R. Conner Museum

School of Biological Sciences

Washington State University

Office: 509-335-3515

Email: jessica.tir at wsu.edu<mailto:jessica.tir at wsu.edu>

Conner Museum Website<https://sbs.wsu.edu/conner-museum/>

From: Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu>> on behalf of Schubert, Blaine W. <SCHUBERT at mail.etsu.edu<mailto:SCHUBERT at mail.etsu.edu>>
Date: Thursday, September 25, 2025 at 9:07 AM
To: Jacqueline Miller <jmiller at rom.on.ca<mailto:jmiller at rom.on.ca>>, Fabian Neisskenwirth <info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de<mailto:info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de>>, nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu> <nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>>
Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton

[EXTERNAL EMAIL]
I once soaked an alligator skeletal specimen in dilute ammonia and there was a copper wire in with specimen tag. The copper went into solution and turned the bone into a beautiful green color.

Blaine W. Schubert, PhD
Executive Director, Center of Excellence in Paleontology
Director, Gray Fossil Site & Museum
Professor, Dept. of Geosciences
East Tennessee State University

________________________________
From: Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu>> on behalf of Jacqueline Miller <jmiller at rom.on.ca<mailto:jmiller at rom.on.ca>>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2025 11:56 AM
To: Fabian Neisskenwirth <info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de<mailto:info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de>>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu> <nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Nhcoll-l] Green bird skeleton

HI Jessica, we have also encountered this with some dry, historical canid skulls in our collections.  These have been tested by XRF and we find chromium and copper (as well as the usual elements associated with preserved bone), but no arsenic.  It is thought, given the provenance of one skull in particular, that it may have something to do with the soil conditions (one was excavated).  Agree with older wires or other mounting materials as well, these will leach into the bone when soaked.

Interesting to have a few green skeletons though, it makes for great collection stories and is not, in-of-itself harmful to the specimen.

Best, Jacqui

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From: Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu<mailto:nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu>> On Behalf Of Fabian Neisskenwirth
Sent: September 25, 2025 7:06 AM
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Subject: Re: [Nhcoll-l] Green bird skeleton

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Dear Jessica,

John's thought is pretty much the most plausible cause. Brass wires (containing copper) were used very commonly to suspend specimen or glass plates for mounts. It is actually quite common to find greenish stained specimen in different collections. This alteration is pretty much irreversible. In some way it also is a very interesting effect, since in whole specimens, only the bone and some fatty tissue is stained. In this sense it actually works a a great staining method. Even though I think that in most of the cases the staining is accidental.

Interesting tough, is that i've noticed that most of the older specimens that still are containing brass wires for mounting that is not corroded and therefore staining the specimens, are specimen preserved in high percentage ethanol solutions (very little water content). This could eventually help to know in what kind of preservation fluid it was kept in. Off course this is no certainty, but maybe some help for the documentation.

I really don't think that this has something to do with the mentioned arsenic based green pigment. This is more of an issue found on paper materials that were colored with this kind of pigments (Wallpaper, Books, Furniture, etc.). Besides that based from the time you told that the specimen was made, it was not a very common pigment used (it was banned in Germany for wallpapers use already in 1878). So you would find this mostly in object from the 19th century and not after.

Here is a good source about this pigment (in German, but you can use some translation tool): https://materialarchiv.ch/de/ma:material_954?type=all<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/materialarchiv.ch/de/ma:material_954?type=all__;!!JmPEgBY0HMszNaDT!u5FDsGmgAw8socohR-F3x_86MaoCh84tQa1XHKEVlajHlRybxbxTaiQfUsLaiRLQ5QeePMhAVUgPlZ8SNko-65ax$>

Hope this solves the mystery!

All the best,

Am 24.09.25 um 20:57 schrieb John E Simmons:

Jessica,

Although arsenic exposure is a possibility, I think it is far more likely that the fluid specimen was stored in a copper container. I have seen the same color green in anuran skeletons stored in copper containers. There were a number of substances added to fluid preservatives that stained specimens green (e.g., alum).

If you know anyone who has an arsenic test kit you could probably confirm whether it is arsenic green. The test kits are relatively easy to use.

--John

John E. Simmons
Writer and Museum Consultant

Museologica
and
Research Associate, Earth and Mineral Sciences Museum & Art Gallery

Penn State University

and

Investigador Asociado, Departamento de Ornitologia
Museo de Historia Natural, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, Lima

On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 2:35 PM Tir, Jessica K <jessica.tir at wsu.edu<mailto:jessica.tir at wsu.edu>> wrote:

Hi all,

There is a mint green razorbill skeleton in our collection. The particular shade of green reminds me of arsenic-based pigments like Paris/Scheele's green. I’m wondering if any of you have encountered a green skeleton like this or have guesses about what happened here?

This bird was collected in 1951 and preserved in fluid until 1968 when it was converted to a skeleton. I don’t have any other information about what chemicals or treatments were applied to the specimen.

Thoughts?

Best,

Jess

[Washington State University Logo: W, S, U, letters create a cougar head.]

Jessica Tir (she/her)

Curator

Charles R. Conner Museum

School of Biological Sciences

Washington State University

Office: 509-335-3515

Email: jessica.tir at wsu.edu<mailto:jessica.tir at wsu.edu>

Conner Museum Website<https://sbs.wsu.edu/conner-museum/>

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