[Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton

Fri Oct 3 02:14:35 EDT 2025

Adding to the general discussion regarding green staining of bones: algae
can also cause green staining. When we moved into a new skeleton
preparation lab equipped with 24/7 safety lights, we found that the
constant light allowed algae to grow in our maceration jars, and skeletons
from the affected jars were stained green (photos attached). Once we
covered our cabinets with blackout fabric, the algae problem went away.

-Symcha Gillette
Research Affiliate, University of Alaska Museum Bird Collection

On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 2:26 AM Neil Clark <Neil.Clark at glasgow.ac.uk> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> Green and blue coated bones are also common in palaeontology and have
> turned out to be vivianite coating - which is a hydrated iron phosphate.
> It can form naturally in low-oxygen, iron-rich, waterlogged environments on
> ice-age remains, but also can be found to replace soft tissue in much older
> material as well (such as the famous conodont animal from the Carboniferous
> of Scotland).
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Neil
>
>
>
> *From:* Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> *On Behalf Of *Walter
> Johannes
> *Sent:* 02 October 2025 10:19
> *To:* Tir, Jessica K <jessica.tir at wsu.edu>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton
>
>
>
> Hi!
>
> Late but might be interesting for you: Green bones are well-established
> objects in archaeology, resp. archaeozoology and as much I know, it had
> been always linked to copper minerals in soil or copper objects in graves
> etc.
>
>
>
> e.g.:
>
> Best,
>
> Johannes
>
>
>
>
>
> *Von:* Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> *Im Auftrag von *Tir,
> Jessica K
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 26. September 2025 23:47
> *An:* nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
> *Betreff:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton
>
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> Thanks for the responses, this is interesting! We apparently received
> this item via exchange with the Smithsonian (while it was still in fluid),
> so that adds another set of unknown decisions to the mix.
>
>
>
> We did try testing it with an arsenic water test kit, which came up
> negative, but I wasn’t sure if that test was valid for arsenic pigments.
> But, the copper container/wire idea does seem more likely. I’ll try to hunt
> down someone with a portable XRF to confirm!
>
>
>
> Maybe I’ll show the bones on our social media when the next Wicked movie
> comes out...
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jess
>
>
>
>
>
> *[image: Washington State University Logo: W, S, U, letters create a
> cougar head.]*
>
> *Jessica Tir *(she/her)
>
> Curator
>
> Charles R. Conner Museum
>
> School of Biological Sciences
>
> Washington State University
>
> Office: 509-335-3515
>
> Email: *jessica.tir at wsu.edu <jessica.tir at wsu.edu>*
>
> *Conner Museum Website <https://sbs.wsu.edu/conner-museum/>*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> on behalf of
> Schubert, Blaine W. <SCHUBERT at mail.etsu.edu>
> *Date: *Thursday, September 25, 2025 at 9:07 AM
> *To: *Jacqueline Miller <jmiller at rom.on.ca>, Fabian Neisskenwirth <
> info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de>, nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu <
> nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
> *Subject: *Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton
>
> *[EXTERNAL EMAIL]*
>
> I once soaked an alligator skeletal specimen in dilute ammonia and there
> was a copper wire in with specimen tag. The copper went into solution and
> turned the bone into a beautiful green color.
>
>
>
> *Blaine W. Schubert, PhD*
>
> *Executive Director, Center of Excellence in Paleontology*
>
> *Director, Gray Fossil Site & Museum*
>
> *Professor, Dept. of Geosciences*
>
> *East Tennessee State University*
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> on behalf of
> Jacqueline Miller <jmiller at rom.on.ca>
> *Sent:* Thursday, September 25, 2025 11:56 AM
> *To:* Fabian Neisskenwirth <info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de>;
> nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu <nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Nhcoll-l] Green bird skeleton
>
>
>
> HI Jessica, we have also encountered this with some dry, historical canid
> skulls in our collections.  These have been tested by XRF and we find
> chromium and copper (as well as the usual elements associated with
> preserved bone), but no arsenic.  It is thought, given the provenance of
> one skull in particular, that it may have something to do with the soil
> conditions (one was excavated).  Agree with older wires or other mounting
> materials as well, these will leach into the bone when soaked.
>
>
>
> Interesting to have a few green skeletons though, it makes for great
> collection stories and is not, in-of-itself harmful to the specimen.
>
>
>
> Best, Jacqui
>
>
>
> *Jacqueline Miller, PhD (She/Her/Hers)*
> Collections Technician 2  -  DNH
>
> 100 Queen's Park
> Toronto, ON M5S 2C6
> 416 586 5769
>
>
>
> ROM acknowledges that this museum sits on the ancestral lands of the
> Wendat, the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, and the Anishinaabek Nation, which
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>
> Le ROM reconnaît que le Musée est situé sur les terres ancestrales des
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> y compris la Première Nation des Mississaugas de Credit, et qu’ils occupent
> ces terres depuis la nuit des temps.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> *On Behalf Of *Fabian
> Neisskenwirth
> *Sent:* September 25, 2025 7:06 AM
> *To:* nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] Green bird skeleton
>
>
>
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> Dear Jessica,
>
> John's thought is pretty much the most plausible cause. Brass wires
> (containing copper) were used very commonly to suspend specimen or glass
> plates for mounts. It is actually quite common to find greenish stained
> specimen in different collections. This alteration is pretty much
> irreversible. In some way it also is a very interesting effect, since in
> whole specimens, only the bone and some fatty tissue is stained. In this
> sense it actually works a a great staining method. Even though I think that
> in most of the cases the staining is accidental.
>
> Interesting tough, is that i've noticed that most of the older specimens
> that still are containing brass wires for mounting that is not corroded and
> therefore staining the specimens, are specimen preserved in high percentage
> ethanol solutions (very little water content). This could eventually help
> to know in what kind of preservation fluid it was kept in. Off course this
> is no certainty, but maybe some help for the documentation.
>
> I really don't think that this has something to do with the mentioned
> arsenic based green pigment. This is more of an issue found on paper
> materials that were colored with this kind of pigments (Wallpaper, Books,
> Furniture, etc.). Besides that based from the time you told that the
> specimen was made, it was not a very common pigment used (it was banned in
> Germany for wallpapers use already in 1878). So you would find this mostly
> in object from the 19th century and not after.
>
> Here is a good source about this pigment (in German, but you can use some
> translation tool): *https://materialarchiv.ch/de/ma:material_954?type=all
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/materialarchiv.ch/de/ma:material_954?type=all__;!!JmPEgBY0HMszNaDT!u5FDsGmgAw8socohR-F3x_86MaoCh84tQa1XHKEVlajHlRybxbxTaiQfUsLaiRLQ5QeePMhAVUgPlZ8SNko-65ax$>*
>
>
>
> Hope this solves the mystery!
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 24.09.25 um 20:57 schrieb John E Simmons:
>
> Jessica,
>
> Although arsenic exposure is a possibility, I think it is far more likely
> that the fluid specimen was stored in a copper container. I have seen the
> same color green in anuran skeletons stored in copper containers. There
> were a number of substances added to fluid preservatives that stained
> specimens green (e.g., alum).
>
>
>
> If you know anyone who has an arsenic test kit you could probably confirm
> whether it is arsenic green. The test kits are relatively easy to use.
>
>
>
> --John
>
>
>
> John E. Simmons
> Writer and Museum Consultant
>
> Museologica
> *and*
> Research Associate, Earth and Mineral Sciences Museum & Art Gallery
>
> Penn State University
>
> *and*
>
> Investigador Asociado, Departamento de Ornitologia
> Museo de Historia Natural, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, Lima
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 2:35 PM Tir, Jessica K <*jessica.tir at wsu.edu
> <jessica.tir at wsu.edu>*> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> There is a mint green razorbill skeleton in our collection. The particular
> shade of green reminds me of arsenic-based pigments like Paris/Scheele's
> green. I’m wondering if any of you have encountered a green skeleton like
> this or have guesses about what happened here?
>
>
>
> This bird was collected in 1951 and preserved in fluid until 1968 when it
> was converted to a skeleton. I don’t have any other information about what
> chemicals or treatments were applied to the specimen.
>
>
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Jess
>
>
>
>
>
> *[image: Washington State University Logo: W, S, U, letters create a
> cougar head.]*
>
> *Jessica Tir *(she/her)
>
> Curator
>
> Charles R. Conner Museum
>
> School of Biological Sciences
>
> Washington State University
>
> Office: 509-335-3515
>
> Email: *jessica.tir at wsu.edu <jessica.tir at wsu.edu>*
>
> *Conner Museum Website <https://sbs.wsu.edu/conner-museum/>*
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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