[Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton

Fri Oct 3 07:18:44 EDT 2025

To  chime in with another scenario, I was informed by the collections
manager that these green bones in a vertebrate paleontology collection were
due to the aging of an old consolidate used in the 1990's.

On Fri, Oct 3, 2025, 2:15 AM Symcha Gillette <sgillette at alaska.edu> wrote:

> Adding to the general discussion regarding green staining of bones: algae
> can also cause green staining. When we moved into a new skeleton
> preparation lab equipped with 24/7 safety lights, we found that the
> constant light allowed algae to grow in our maceration jars, and skeletons
> from the affected jars were stained green (photos attached). Once we
> covered our cabinets with blackout fabric, the algae problem went away.
>
> -Symcha Gillette
> Research Affiliate, University of Alaska Museum Bird Collection
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 2:26 AM Neil Clark <Neil.Clark at glasgow.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>>
>>
>> Green and blue coated bones are also common in palaeontology and have
>> turned out to be vivianite coating - which is a hydrated iron phosphate.
>> It can form naturally in low-oxygen, iron-rich, waterlogged environments on
>> ice-age remains, but also can be found to replace soft tissue in much older
>> material as well (such as the famous conodont animal from the Carboniferous
>> of Scotland).
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>>
>> Neil
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> *On Behalf Of *Walter
>> Johannes
>> *Sent:* 02 October 2025 10:19
>> *To:* Tir, Jessica K <jessica.tir at wsu.edu>; nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> Late but might be interesting for you: Green bones are well-established
>> objects in archaeology, resp. archaeozoology and as much I know, it had
>> been always linked to copper minerals in soil or copper objects in graves
>> etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> e.g.:
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Johannes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Von:* Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> *Im Auftrag von *Tir,
>> Jessica K
>> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 26. September 2025 23:47
>> *An:* nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
>> *Betreff:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton
>>
>>
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the responses, this is interesting! We apparently received
>> this item via exchange with the Smithsonian (while it was still in fluid),
>> so that adds another set of unknown decisions to the mix.
>>
>>
>>
>> We did try testing it with an arsenic water test kit, which came up
>> negative, but I wasn’t sure if that test was valid for arsenic pigments.
>> But, the copper container/wire idea does seem more likely. I’ll try to hunt
>> down someone with a portable XRF to confirm!
>>
>>
>>
>> Maybe I’ll show the bones on our social media when the next Wicked movie
>> comes out...
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jess
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *[image: Washington State University Logo: W, S, U, letters create a
>> cougar head.]*
>>
>> *Jessica Tir *(she/her)
>>
>> Curator
>>
>> Charles R. Conner Museum
>>
>> School of Biological Sciences
>>
>> Washington State University
>>
>> Office: 509-335-3515
>>
>> Email: *jessica.tir at wsu.edu <jessica.tir at wsu.edu>*
>>
>> *Conner Museum Website <https://sbs.wsu.edu/conner-museum/>*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> on behalf of
>> Schubert, Blaine W. <SCHUBERT at mail.etsu.edu>
>> *Date: *Thursday, September 25, 2025 at 9:07 AM
>> *To: *Jacqueline Miller <jmiller at rom.on.ca>, Fabian Neisskenwirth <
>> info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de>, nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu <
>> nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
>> *Subject: *Re: [Nhcoll-l] [EXTERNAL] Re: Green bird skeleton
>>
>> *[EXTERNAL EMAIL]*
>>
>> I once soaked an alligator skeletal specimen in dilute ammonia and there
>> was a copper wire in with specimen tag. The copper went into solution and
>> turned the bone into a beautiful green color.
>>
>>
>>
>> *Blaine W. Schubert, PhD*
>>
>> *Executive Director, Center of Excellence in Paleontology*
>>
>> *Director, Gray Fossil Site & Museum*
>>
>> *Professor, Dept. of Geosciences*
>>
>> *East Tennessee State University*
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> on behalf of
>> Jacqueline Miller <jmiller at rom.on.ca>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 25, 2025 11:56 AM
>> *To:* Fabian Neisskenwirth <info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de>;
>> nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu <nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu>
>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: [Nhcoll-l] Green bird skeleton
>>
>>
>>
>> HI Jessica, we have also encountered this with some dry, historical canid
>> skulls in our collections.  These have been tested by XRF and we find
>> chromium and copper (as well as the usual elements associated with
>> preserved bone), but no arsenic.  It is thought, given the provenance of
>> one skull in particular, that it may have something to do with the soil
>> conditions (one was excavated).  Agree with older wires or other mounting
>> materials as well, these will leach into the bone when soaked.
>>
>>
>>
>> Interesting to have a few green skeletons though, it makes for great
>> collection stories and is not, in-of-itself harmful to the specimen.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best, Jacqui
>>
>>
>>
>> *Jacqueline Miller, PhD (She/Her/Hers)*
>> Collections Technician 2  -  DNH
>>
>> 100 Queen's Park
>> Toronto, ON M5S 2C6
>> 416 586 5769
>>
>>
>>
>> ROM acknowledges that this museum sits on the ancestral lands of the
>> Wendat, the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, and the Anishinaabek Nation, which
>> includes the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation, since time immemorial
>> to today.
>>
>> Le ROM reconnaît que le Musée est situé sur les terres ancestrales des
>> Wendats, de la Confédération des Haudenosaunee et de la Nation Anishinabek,
>> y compris la Première Nation des Mississaugas de Credit, et qu’ils occupent
>> ces terres depuis la nuit des temps.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Nhcoll-l <nhcoll-l-bounces at mailman.yale.edu> *On Behalf Of *Fabian
>> Neisskenwirth
>> *Sent:* September 25, 2025 7:06 AM
>> *To:* nhcoll-l at mailman.yale.edu
>> *Subject:* Re: [Nhcoll-l] Green bird skeleton
>>
>>
>>
>> You don't often get email from *info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de
>> <info at naturhistorische-konservierung.de>*. *Learn why this is important
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>>
>> Dear Jessica,
>>
>> John's thought is pretty much the most plausible cause. Brass wires
>> (containing copper) were used very commonly to suspend specimen or glass
>> plates for mounts. It is actually quite common to find greenish stained
>> specimen in different collections. This alteration is pretty much
>> irreversible. In some way it also is a very interesting effect, since in
>> whole specimens, only the bone and some fatty tissue is stained. In this
>> sense it actually works a a great staining method. Even though I think that
>> in most of the cases the staining is accidental.
>>
>> Interesting tough, is that i've noticed that most of the older specimens
>> that still are containing brass wires for mounting that is not corroded and
>> therefore staining the specimens, are specimen preserved in high percentage
>> ethanol solutions (very little water content). This could eventually help
>> to know in what kind of preservation fluid it was kept in. Off course this
>> is no certainty, but maybe some help for the documentation.
>>
>> I really don't think that this has something to do with the mentioned
>> arsenic based green pigment. This is more of an issue found on paper
>> materials that were colored with this kind of pigments (Wallpaper, Books,
>> Furniture, etc.). Besides that based from the time you told that the
>> specimen was made, it was not a very common pigment used (it was banned in
>> Germany for wallpapers use already in 1878). So you would find this mostly
>> in object from the 19th century and not after.
>>
>> Here is a good source about this pigment (in German, but you can use some
>> translation tool): *https://materialarchiv.ch/de/ma:material_954?type=all
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/materialarchiv.ch/de/ma:material_954?type=all__;!!JmPEgBY0HMszNaDT!u5FDsGmgAw8socohR-F3x_86MaoCh84tQa1XHKEVlajHlRybxbxTaiQfUsLaiRLQ5QeePMhAVUgPlZ8SNko-65ax$>*
>>
>>
>>
>> Hope this solves the mystery!
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 24.09.25 um 20:57 schrieb John E Simmons:
>>
>> Jessica,
>>
>> Although arsenic exposure is a possibility, I think it is far more likely
>> that the fluid specimen was stored in a copper container. I have seen the
>> same color green in anuran skeletons stored in copper containers. There
>> were a number of substances added to fluid preservatives that stained
>> specimens green (e.g., alum).
>>
>>
>>
>> If you know anyone who has an arsenic test kit you could probably confirm
>> whether it is arsenic green. The test kits are relatively easy to use.
>>
>>
>>
>> --John
>>
>>
>>
>> John E. Simmons
>> Writer and Museum Consultant
>>
>> Museologica
>> *and*
>> Research Associate, Earth and Mineral Sciences Museum & Art Gallery
>>
>> Penn State University
>>
>> *and*
>>
>> Investigador Asociado, Departamento de Ornitologia
>> Museo de Historia Natural, Universidad Nacional Mayor de San Marcos, Lima
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 24, 2025 at 2:35 PM Tir, Jessica K <*jessica.tir at wsu.edu
>> <jessica.tir at wsu.edu>*> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a mint green razorbill skeleton in our collection. The
>> particular shade of green reminds me of arsenic-based pigments like
>> Paris/Scheele's green. I’m wondering if any of you have encountered a green
>> skeleton like this or have guesses about what happened here?
>>
>>
>>
>> This bird was collected in 1951 and preserved in fluid until 1968 when it
>> was converted to a skeleton. I don’t have any other information about what
>> chemicals or treatments were applied to the specimen.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jess
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *[image: Washington State University Logo: W, S, U, letters create a
>> cougar head.]*
>>
>> *Jessica Tir *(she/her)
>>
>> Curator
>>
>> Charles R. Conner Museum
>>
>> School of Biological Sciences
>>
>> Washington State University
>>
>> Office: 509-335-3515
>>
>> Email: *jessica.tir at wsu.edu <jessica.tir at wsu.edu>*
>>
>> *Conner Museum Website <https://sbs.wsu.edu/conner-museum/>*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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