Photos of urban monarch overwintering sites in California

[Anne Kilmer]

>
> Dear Ann,
>
> I read all of your posts - I like them.  I didn't realize that this
> discussion would draw so much attention.  I again confess my myopic view of
> leps as I am focused on the Monarch at this time yet I am learning more all
> the time.
>
We all begin somewhere. Monarchs are as good a place as any. Many of us,
as we mature, become interested in the way the whole thing fits
together, and become interested in ecology. We may become activists,
work in public gardens, or just happily cultivate our own particular
spot. But our interest in butterflies usually extends to the other folks
in the garden, and usually we become less sentimental and more sensible
about the role of the butterfly as provider of that basic food group,
the caterpillar.
> Do you think that it has been established that the Monarch is an 'indicator'
> species?  How does an indicator species get designated as such?
>
Well, I proposed that as a matter for consideration. Usually an
indicator species lets you know that an area is happily producing the
forms of life it deserves to have. Generally speaking, if there are
butterflies, there are plenty of frogs, lizards, birds, and the other
critters that belong in that spot.
You fine-tune this, of course, by choosing particular species that are
*always* there if your dune or bog or whatever hasn't been degraded.
Line the miner's canary, if it's gone, you're in trouble.
The Monarch butterfly cannot possibly be an indicator species, because
it is being continually messed with. People release them, people garden
to attract them, we manipulate their population, and so they reflect our
deliberate actions more than they reveal our inadvertant actions. There
are too many variables, and so you can't measure anything accurately.
Or, you might say, their presence indicates that an area is nice for
Monarchs, but it tells us nothing else about the health of the
environment there and elsewhere.
 
> I am woefully ignorant of other species of leps and assume some of those
> lesser known species have been designated as indicator species.
 
You know, Barbara, to be honest with you, I know what garden writers
say, but we aren't that kind of expert. I don't know whether *real*
scientists bother telling people to go survey for (say) scrub jays and
here's the other stuff you'll find. Maybe it's an environmental activist
sort of thing.
People's concern about the Monarch is not that we'll run out of them,
for any reason. With so many friends, that's not likely to happen. Some
are afraid that the ones that migrate will lose that ability, but it
doesn't look as if that is happening.
There are small enclaves of "different" monarchs, such as the ones in
South Florida. Whatever their differences may be, they will be lost if
people may freely ship them around and release them. But, such are their
wandering ways, they might have been all mixed up, anyway.
 
>
> You also posted:
>
> > The real problem is overpopulation ... until a plague or war or meteor
> > solves it. Or until it turns out that we have achieved critical mass and
> > are received into our place among the gods.
> > so ... learning to negotiate, to consider other people's views ... not a
> > bad way to amuse oneself on a winter's day.
>
> I propose that a war/meteor catastrophe described above would have a
> negative effect on all leps and alter the numbers of my favorite indicator
> species - human beings.
>
> Barbara Page
> enjoying the discussions
 
Well, many leps, depending on the nature of the catastrophe, might
profit. A meteor would be bad, but the plague would scarcely affect
them, except that presently the cleared lands would be less generously
provided, and the weedy species would be less advantaged.
A war would strongly benefit such species as the cabbage whites and the
Monarchs, which use the weeds that appear on recently-cleared ground.
That's assuming that we don't go nuclear.
 
We are not indicator species; not since we invented the umbrella. And as
long as we have factories, we can probably live in remarkably
disagreeable circumstances on a ruined planet. I'm hoping we don't do
that.
I'm concerned that the better-living-through-chemistry people  will be
contented living in malls, while the storms rage around them. And they
have all the money and they will win.
But maybe not.
Anne Kilmer
south Florida
>
> Subject: Re: Photos of urban monarch overwintering sites in California
>
> > I find that a sweater helps, although not enough. And how do you get one
> > onto a butterfly?
> > Y'all can go on about anything as long as you like; that delete button
> > is just wonderful. ;-) (Actually I seldom use it; just kidding.)
> > I am myself both contentious and discursive, and have survived thus far.
> > The point I was attempting to make was that when you are administering a
> > scolding, your audience is very able to leave early, so it's best to get
> > in, get down and get out.
> > When berating my own young, I always tried to use very long words, thus
> > ensuring that at least they got *something* out of it. ;-)
> > Yes, when we see a need, and we feel we can fill it, by golly there we
> > are, painstakingly ungluing the butterfly from the windshield, where it
> > is pasted by its own guts, and wondering whether we can somehow nurse it
> > back to health.
> > I have no problem with that.
> > We are, in fact, playing God, taking over nature's "plan" and this might
> > be perfectly fine. We have hardly achieved a consensus on what we want,
> > though, and we get too soon old and too late wise.
> > I think it is important, on this list, to hear from the extremists as
> > well as the middle ground. I think we are enriched by Paul and Neil and
> > all the other opinionated, well-informed, cantankerous, cranky and
> > delightful leppers. And, as you suggest, many of us think winter should
> > hurry up and finish. But there are butterflies past, butterflies to
> > come, and gardens to plan and plant. perhaps now is the time to work out
> > big-picture stuff, like the significance of urban monarchs as acceptable
> > substitutes for the Xerces Blue, for instance.
> > Change happens and we're all cascading into oblivion anyway (or heaven
> > bound, or going around again ... inshallah) but, where we can choose the
> > change, isn't it well to discuss it?
> > Had you all been consulted, would there now be Cabbage Whites in
> > California?
> > For my part, I am concerned that we are making the planet into a bad
> > place for *people* to live.
> > I find that people who are unconcerned by the effect of pesticides on
> > their own health are immediately involved when you mention that
> > butterflies are killed by Dursban or whatever ... and will make the
> > sacrifice for the butterflies that they will not make for their own
> > health.
> > It's a flawed approach, of course, but, like leaping from ice floe to
> > ice floe, each one only has to float until you leap to the next one, and
> > we are supported by our own impetus.
> > The real problem is overpopulation ... until a plague or war or meteor
> > solves it. Or until it turns out that we have achieved critical mass and
> > are received into our place among the gods.
> > so ... learning to negotiate, to consider other people's views ... not a
> > bad way to amuse oneself on a winter's day.
> >
> > Seems to me the question we're tapdancing around here is, is the Monarch
> > an indicator species, or is it replacing a wide variety of other species
> > as habitats are degraded or eliminated.
> >
> > It's important because Paul's argument seems to be: of course
> > butterflies aren't in trouble; there are plenty of Monarchs. If it's an
> > indicator species, that's fine and
> > of course he's right. If it's replacing all the other little guys,
> > that's appalling.
> > I shall now raise my umbrella and hunker down.
> > Anne Kilmer
> > south Florida
>
>
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