Fwd: Re: NY Times Butterflying Article

Chris J. Durden drdn at mail.utexas.edu
Mon Jun 11 12:34:10 EDT 2001

    See below-

At 08:20 AM 6/11/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear foaming fanciers of the furry fliers,

Sounds like assassin bugs to me.

>Clearly I did miss the point, which I assumed had something to do with
>butterfly collecting.

Not with collecting but with the legality and possibility to collect.

>You know what I really hate about animal rights advocates ( I once stumbled
>upon an outdoor revival meeting of these neo-Hitlerites)? Their songs are dumb
>and they don't sing on tune. It was quite a comedown from the civil-rights and
>anti-war meetings of my youth. It is painful to admit in the face of this
>musical mediocrity, that their arguments have nothing to do with their 
>music or
>with Adolf Hitler. While I do not always agree, a good overview is Animal
>Liberation by the philosopher Peter Singer, that ill-named man. I believe the
>preHitlerite Francisco d'Asisi had something to say on the subject also.

Francisco d'Assisi (1182-1226) was a much broader intellect than that from 
what I have read, although he did spend some time in his formative years in 
the land of Osama bin Laden. (That mention should trigger an Interpol 
search for Francisco!)
   I understand from a recent report that there are not many birds in 
Assisi, the small boys having shot them and eaten them.

>Yours in struggle,
>Doktor Patrick Foley
>patfoley at csus.edu
>"Chris J. Durden" wrote:
> > >To: patfoley at csus.edu
> > >From: "Chris J. Durden" <drdn at mail.utexas.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: NY Times Butterflying Article
> > >
> > >Patrick,
> > >   I don't think you get the point.
> > >   It is the anti-collection-movement that is advocated by NABA that is
> > > the voice of crankyness. It is the voice of the animal rights fringe and
> > > the anti vivisectionists. One gentleman in history who felt strongly
> > > enough about the sanctity of butterfly life, to establish a law against
> > > collecting them in his country was Ad*lph H*tl*r. Surely this was cranky.
> > > I understand his law has never been repealed. Maybe one of our colleagues
> > > in Germany has better information concerning the law against collecting
> > > butterflies in his country.
> > >   We collectors just want to be left alone to do our thing, as we have a
> > > historical right to do, and a scientific mandate to do.
> > >...........Chris Durden
> > >
> > >At 09:20 AM 6/10/2001 -0700, you wrote:
> > >>Paul and others,
> > >>
> > >>The statements made by NABA on the two web pages Paul cites
> > >>1) do not discourage scientific or educational collecting at all,
> > >>2) do provide information and ideas about butterfly releases that
> > >>represent the consensus among population biologists with any knowledge
> > >>on the subject. Not everyone agrees with NABA's anti release position,
> > >>but it is hardly a radical anti-scientific position. Most professional
> > >>population biologists that I have spoken with appear to agree with NABA
> > >>on release. In fact, the issue seems so obvious that it is hard to get
> > >>most population biologists to even see why there is a controversy. We
> > >>have argued this out at length on this list. The only reason I reply to
> > >>Paul's message is that you are encouraging a stupid ganging-up on NABA.
> > >>NABA is not your enemy. Overpopulation and poorly regulated development
> > >>is the enemy of the butterflies.
> > >>
> > >>For utter clarification
> > >>1) I am not anti-collection. I collect bees and occasional butterflies.
> > >>Collection is a scientific and educational necessity.
> > >>2) I _am_ against unregulated butterfly releases except for locally
> > >>raised butterflies. The reasons are on record.
> > >>3) I am not a NABA member, but I like most of what they do. I especially
> > >>like Glassberg's books.
> > >>4) I am not trying to defend every position that scientists or NABA
> > >>members have ever taken.
> > >>5) I do not like govenment regulation, but in the absence of
> > >>intelligent, responsible individual behavior, we need to fall back on
> > >>robotic laws. Maybe the anti-anti-collectors and the anti-anti-releasers
> > >>on this list could work out an intelligent, responsible approach to the
> > >>problems that they could convince the NABA people of. Then stop the
> > >>endless whining.
> > >>6) I don't care if 5000 or 10000 people collect butterflies. But I want
> > >>_all_ children to study butterflies and plants and bees. The effect on
> > >>butterfly populations if _all_ children collect, would be significant.
> > >>Furthermore, I want all children who want to collect to do so
> > >>responsibly. Butterflies are not stamps or coins, and they should be
> > >>treated differently. NABA is doing children a service to make this
> > >>clear. Collectors do them a disservice if they encourage irresponsible
> > >>collecting.
> > >>7) If you want a voice in the forming of a scientific and/or social
> > >>consensus, the appropriate methods are scientific and social. Crankiness
> > >>and sniping are rarely as effective on others as they are satisfying to
> > >>the egos of cranky snipers.
> > >>
> > >>Somewhere in the spectrum,
> > >>Patrick Foley
> > >>patfoley at csus.edu
> >
> >
> >  ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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