THE LIST - FINAL

[Ron Gatrelle]

Stan --  I am glad you posted what you did below and it is very well, and
courteously said, and I agree with it totally per no religious debates
here.  Awhile back on the TAXACOM list serve there was a lot of posting
going on over the proposed teaching of creationism is the Hawaii public
schools.  The State School Board had a member who was wanting to require
creationism being taught along side evolution.  I was one of the strong
opponents of this move and had several suggestions and reason as to why
creationism should not be taught in public schools.  The bottom line is
that I see no way to do so without it becoming "religious" or "evangelical"
is nature -- you can't teach creation without a creator -- and just which
or whose god, God, gods is it that going to be taught to our kids?

I hold creation as a relatively easy provable fact.  But I hold creationism
as fraught with personal and factional religious bunk.  Any given group of
creationists would kick me out as MY slant is not the same as theirs.  So I
too have no desire to see a creationist free for all here -- or anywhere.
(Though if one started I would - as Anne I think said - throw my hat into
the fray.)

So we have a paradox here.  While I see creation and "God" as a valid (and
equal) element of _theoretical_ debate as to origins and the function of
life on Earth (which was why I mentioned these in my other post),  I do not
see Leps-L as any _practical_ forum for such a debate.   The sum of this is
that just because we "creationist" are silent here it does not mean (and
should not be taken) as acquiescing to pure Darwinism or that we are
unoffended by some of the "insensitive" remarks that are thrown out (at our
dearly held truth) here at times.  I would wager that among all who are
subscribed to this list the great majority hold religious views of some
kind and a great many "believe" in Creation from out of their particular
religious persuasion.

Let me rephase this.  This is _our_  and thus _my_  list just as much as
anyone else's.  Stan's statement that "...so the flavor, or character, of
Leps-L will be established by the  majority of those who participate.. " is
true in more ways than one.  The illusion that must be avoided is that the
majority who post are not necessarily The Majority.   Stan also said,
"..but I felt I needed to express my views, in the sense of a 'vote', on
the nature of Leps-L..."  Absolutely, and any number of us need to be
reigned in at times -- again in more ways, and on more topics, than the
"one"  a given individual or segment does not agree with.  Email is also a
horrid way to communicate anything other than a grocery list.

Thanks again, Stan,  for saying a creationist debate is the last thing we
need here.

Ron Gatrelle

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Gorodenski" <stanlep at extremezone.com>
Cc: "Leps-l" <Leps-l at lists.yale.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: THE LIST - FINAL

snip

> With all proper and sincere respects to Ron, Ron's statement, on the
> surface, has the appearance (which undoubtedly is not true) of a
> rationalization for using Leps-L as a forum to promote another agenda.
> Granted, there have been many off topic discussions on this list, but
> creationism is a religious _belief_ and all attempts to promote it as a
> legitimate and scientific explanation for lepidoptera related issues
> (such as speciation) is, in my opinion, actually an attempt to
> proselytize.
>
> I hope creationist debates will take place in other forums or lists.
> Ultimately, though, people can say what they want (within civility), and
> so the flavor, or character, of Leps-L will be established by the
> majority of those who participate.
>
> With this I will sign off and say no more.  It is not my intention to
> start a creationist debate (and I hope one does not start), but I felt I
> needed to express my views, in the sense of a 'vote', on the nature of
> Leps-L.
>
> Stan
>



 
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