killing butterflies for fun???

Grkovich, Alex agrkovich at
Mon Jul 8 08:18:46 EDT 2002


You quoted the Bible in your post to me in response to my post to those
wretches in Mass. about the "Golden Banded Skipper"? You say that
homosexuality is NOT immoral? Read what St. Paul say about it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Neil Jones [SMTP:neil at]
> Sent:	Thursday, July 05, 2001 3:43 PM
> To:	leps-l at
> Subject:	Re: killing butterflies for fun???
> On Friday 05 July 2002 05:00 pm, Mark Walker wrote:
> > Neil wrote:
> > > When you use an argument what doesn't address the real issue it is
> seen
> > > as being evasive.
> >
> > I don't understand comments like this.  Those who've used the windshield
> > argument (like myself, on occasion), are making their own point which is
> > defined by its own issues.  Rejecting an argument based on its not
> > addressing YOUR real issue is essentially the same as ignoring the
> argument
> > - which I find far more evasive.
> >
> > The question is NOT one of volition, it is one of hypocrisy.  The
> argument
> > insists that those who like to throw stones should put them down long
> > enough to do some self-examination.
> >
> > Suppose there was this homosexual whom I constantly berated and hounded
> and
> > publicly condemned because of immoral lifestyle.  
> Oh dear, Oh dear,Oh dear. Those Mullahs have really got to you.
> Let's get one thing straight, homosexuality is not immoral never mind what
> any interpretation of any ancient holy book says!  No doubt among all the 
> hundreds of forms of religion that man has invented for himself there must
> be 
> one, with adherents just in strong as faith as you, that espouses the 
> opposite. :-)
> People fall in love. They are made that way. Most with the opposite sex
> but 
> some not. They_are_made_that_way. It has _always_ been so.
> Myself I have always been exclusively attracted to women, I cannot help
> it. I 
> am made that way.
> And then suppose that you
> > found out that I was prone to spending hours surfing porn or visiting
> strip
> > joints.  You would accuse me of hypocrisy, and would get irate if I ever
> > dared label another as immoral.
> Actually Mark. If you want to visit strip joints or surf for porn that is 
> entirely your choice. You are actually being just as moralistic as those
> who condemn you for collecting butterflies, which is your choice.
> > The point is that we are ALL guilty of both intentionally killing
> insects
> > and destroying their habitat.  We KNOW that driving kills bugs, and yet
> we
> > CHOOSE to continue driving out of convenience.  We KNOW that developing
> > shopping malls destroys habitat, but yet we CHOOSE to continue to shop
> at
> > them out of convenience.  We KNOW that cultivating acres of produce
> results
> > in spraying and other detrimental effects to the environment, and yet we
> > CHOOSE to continue to eat.  We KNOW that buying virtually any product
> > contributes to the demise of a species, and yet we CHOOSE to buy and
> sell.
> > We KNOW that intentionally killing life is somehow worse than letting it
> > live, and yet we CHOOSE to go to all costs towards eliminating unwanted
> > creatures and plants from our immediate surroundings (ants, weeds,
> > cockroaches, spiders, mosquitoes, wasps, flies, etc.).
> Look Mark. There is a concept in _law_ called Mens Rea. "Guilty Mind".
> In order to commit a crime you must have had an attitude of mind that 
> directly _intended_ to do so.
> > We're all guilty - some of us worse than others.  Those of use that take
> > occasional specimens but otherwise are MORE sensitive to the impacts
> > described above, do NOT appreciate being berated, hounded, or publicly
> > condemned by those out there who are too ignorant to recognize their own
> > hypocrisy.
> Mark, you are tilting at windmills again!
> No one here seriously says that you are wrongabout collecting. Paul
> Cherubini 
> has dug out a weeks old posting just to stir things up again. I wouldn't
> be 
> suprised if Sugar was another of his false identities.
> I would have thought since you work with computers you would understand
> the 
> logic. Before you can fix any system you have to understand how it works.
> You method for fixing the bad idea doesn't work because it doesn't address
> the argument.
> are against _deliberately_ going out and killing butterflies. They don't
> care 
> about accidentally killing them. Hypocritical it may be to your highly 
> moralistic views but in their equally highly moralistic system that is how
> it 
> is.
> If you don't address this point by pointing out the proper need to
> collect 
> in a _rational_ manner. You are going to loose the argument. PERIOD.
> --
> Neil Jones- Neil at
> "At some point I had to stand up and be counted. Who speaks for the
> butterflies?" Andrew Lees - The quotation on his memorial at Crymlyn Bog
> National Nature Reserve
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