[leps-talk] Re: Tiger Swallowtail hybrids

[Grkovich, Alex]

I second Ron Gatrelle's remarks below.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ron Gatrelle [SMTP:gatrelle at tils-ttr.org]
> Sent:	Wednesday, June 19, 2002 4:27 PM
> To:	Harry Pavulaan; leps-talk; Leplist
> Cc:	tmcavoy at vt.edu
> Subject:	[leps-talk] Re: Tiger Swallowtail hybrids
> 
> I am sorry to be so honest but the post by McAvoy is just plain stupid -
> as
> well as ignorant.  It is ignorant as it has no knowledge of the published
> paper.  This is evidenced by the insulting suggestion that someone should
> undertake lab rearing studies - something the authors did repeatedly for
> years and results recorded in the paper.   It is stupid for why on earth
> would one want to put a tomato into a machine to find out what it tastes
> like when all one has to do is take of bite of the real thing?   From PA
> to
> GA there is a LAB called nature.  It is plain as the taste in one's mouth
> what exists there.
> 
> Over thousands of square miles (stepping into the REAL rearing cage) one
> finds millions of specimens of P. appalachiensis and ZERO hybrids.  For
> hundreds of miles around the TL in NC (a few miles from the GA state line)
> there are only two species of Tiger Swallowtails - glaucus and
> appalachiensis.  They are as different as day and night.  Glaucus comes
> out
> in numbers at the end of March into April and first of May in this area.
> It is gone by mid June and slowly reappears in the summer broods from the
> end of June to frost.  (The authors bred these glaucus broods from each
> other.)   At the end of April appalachiensis comes out and is gone by the
> end of June.  It dwarfs glaucus both in its individual size and in the
> numbers of specimens - it outnumbers glaucus 10 to 1.  At higher
> elevations
> appalachiensis is the ONLY species in spring.   Later in the year _summer_
> glaucus (which are much smaller than _spring_ appalachiensis) disperse to
> the higher elevations - but can not breed there as the season is too short
> (Canadian zone).
> 
> 
> I am not going to sit by and let the crap artists in the Northeastern US
> do
> to Pavulaan and Wright and appalachiensis what they have done with them re
> Celastrina idella.   Thousands of man hours over years and years have been
> put into this research by these two.  But - there are still people who
> think the earth is flat too.  More comments follow below...
> 
> Ron Gatrelle
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Harry Pavulaan" <harrypav at hotmail.com>
> To: <NYSButterflies at yahoogroups.com>; <valeps at yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: <tmcavoy at vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 19, 2002 2:33 PM
> Subject: Tiger Swallowtail hybrids
> 
> 
> > Tom McAvoy wrote:
> >
> > <<
> > According to Ernst Mayr (Principles of Systematic Zoology 1969) and many
> > other systematics   [ the word here you want is systematists]
> 
> >the definition of a species is: "groups of actually (or
> > potentially) interbreeding natural populations which are reproductively
> 
> [note your own quote here "natural populations"  not lab populations]
> 
> > isolated from other such groups". Seems to me the real test of whether a
> > group of animals is a separate species from another group that is
> slightly
> > dissimilar in appearance is to see if they produce viable offspring i.e.
> 
> [ you only see these as "slightly" dissimilar in appearance because you
> have no idea what they are or how to ID them.  To some people Monarchs and
> Viceroys look identical too.  You only show how little you know.  ]
> 
> > cage Eastern Tiger Swallowtails with Appalachian Tiger Swallowtails
> might
> be
> > worth a try.  I know getting successful reproduction from know species
> is
> > difficult but it would worth a try. NOT getting offspring when eastern &
> > Appalachians are caged may not prove they are separate species but
> getting
> > offspring would definitely confirm that they are the same species - the
> > eastern.
> 
> [Who are you????   All kinds of offspring can be obtained by crossing all
> kinds of diverse taxa.  It is what these offspring do or do not do that is
> most important - back crosses etc.  There are people (dealers) who sell
> weird cross bred offspring all the time.  Simply getting some offspring
> proves nothing re speciation.   Heads you win, tails they loose! = If they
> don't reproduce it proves nothing but if the cross produces a few
> [infertile] males it proves they are the same!!!!    Further, many many
> systematists now laugh at Myar and don't consider the biological species
> concept worth much of anything any more. ]
> 
> Harry's nice reply snipped.......
> 
> 
> 
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